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Post by Simey on Apr 16, 2008 18:11:59 GMT -5
Did you see the ressurected post that got me thinking about this in the first place on aon? You weren't around so I defended Qinefer and Alyss and Legends, then gave it a kicking at the end when it wasn't expcting it about some small things Nope. I don't really go on the Aon boards much. Or was this on in the Refuge and I missed it!?
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Post by Beowuuf on Apr 16, 2008 18:18:13 GMT -5
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Post by zipp on Apr 16, 2008 18:20:20 GMT -5
This is all making me miss Cloe a lot. I really loved writing as her, you could never tell what she was going to do next. I could never tell what she was going to do next.
Like the maze tournament. That ending came completely out of the blue.
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Post by Agrarvyn on Apr 16, 2008 19:52:14 GMT -5
I couldn't do a lot with Tyrenis, mainly because the WW rules mandated that you played at the level of your posting and I couldn't reasonably or extensively play a high-epic character with almost entirely self-devised powers (though I did occasionally take a stab at it).
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Post by zipp on Apr 16, 2008 21:17:05 GMT -5
I couldn't do a lot with Tyrenis, mainly because the WW rules mandated that you played at the level of your posting and I couldn't reasonably or extensively play a high-epic character with almost entirely self-devised powers (though I did occasionally take a stab at it). Tyrenis was the perfect foundation for Zipp. Seriously, Tyrenis formed a huge part of her drive. It was his saving her from the sewers of... what city was it?... that cemented her life's goals.
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Post by Beowuuf on Apr 17, 2008 0:01:22 GMT -5
You could have done a Dusk Fox and requested a post count hold, or done a Simey and ignored your character level and forum persona
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Post by Agrarvyn on Apr 17, 2008 14:22:45 GMT -5
Pssst, Zipp - Varetta! I could have done Beo, but by leading the Sages, I was instantly 20th-level anyway. I wasn't exactly Winterhawk's favourite person either.
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Post by Maerin on Apr 17, 2008 14:41:50 GMT -5
*chuckles wryly* Which makes a point I think both I and others mentioned elsewhere (though some different conclusions were drawn by various people out of that point): the level system, based mostly on out-of-character participation in the Tower community, yielded out-of-character responsibilities. However, requiring that such be also representative of in-character existence at the same time was foolish and virtually impossible to sustain in-character in any sort of satisfactory fashion. The problem within that last part was never in regards to people of low level on the Tower site (despite claims and explanations in various Tower sources presuming the contrary), but in reality in regards to the people of higher levels.
I remember at least one particularly absurd discussion relating to this topic on the Tower forums in the months leading up to the loss of the Tower. The reality was that "level", as an in-character concept that is, virtually never functioned properly in the time I was present in the Tower community. In the course of digging through and reading archives, I saw precious little evidence that it ever functioned as it might have intended.
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Post by zipp on Apr 17, 2008 14:58:02 GMT -5
*chuckles wryly* Which makes a point I think both I and others mentioned elsewhere (though some different conclusions were drawn by various people out of that point): the level system, based mostly on out-of-character participation in the Tower community, yielded out-of-character responsibilities. However, requiring that such be also representative of in-character existence at the same time was foolish and virtually impossible to sustain in-character in any sort of satisfactory fashion. The problem within that last part was never in regards to people of low level on the Tower site (despite claims and explanations in various Tower sources presuming the contrary), but in reality in regards to the people of higher levels. I remember at least one particularly absurd discussion relating to this topic on the Tower forums in the months leading up to the loss of the Tower. The reality was that "level", as an in-character concept that is, virtually never functioned properly in the time I was present in the Tower community. In the course of digging through and reading archives, I saw precious little evidence that it ever functioned as it might have intended. Well, there were those who tried to maintain the character at the level they had started in the WW at. But mostly you are correct. I always wanted the WW roleplaying to be governed somewhat by things like inventory and levels. But only if those systems were less broken.
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Post by Simey on Apr 18, 2008 9:16:22 GMT -5
Yoiks! Them's a good set of arguments! I don't think I could ever have analysed the Legends situation so well - and I think my fingers would've fallen off before I'd managed to write all that! Anyway, I suppose I ought to ponder Simey's Mary-Sue-ness.... First of all, a bit of a disclaimer: I picked the KotWM class by accident when I signed up on TotS, and whilst I would definitely have gone for a 'good' class rather than a 'bad' one, I think KotWM would've been close to last on my list had I known what I was doing. So I think that somewhat explains why Simey is not and could never be considered a typical KotWM. Having said that, I quickly got used to being part of the KotWM class (it probably helped that I'd inadvertantly become a class leader - how my inferiors must shake their heads in disbelief!) and found it fun to play about with what a KotWM was (hence all the MKC jokes about gambling, drinking, dwarf-tipping, transvestism....wait - what am I giving away here!?!!). Outside the WW, what was most fun was to work on the basis that the KnightsotWM were the biggest liars in Magnamund, the Oath of Truthfulness being the most scandalous front ever mounted by any organisation anywhere. Taking a Simey into the WW under those assumptions would, of course, be unreasonable and make something of a mockery of the canon setting. But as I mentioned above, it's fun to take things that don't quite fit together and try and find ways to make them work, and WW Simey may be another example (though whether I have actually made him work, others will have to decide). Did I want ot write about someone going around being all honourable and KotWM-y? No, not really. Did I want to write about someone whose main concern was the security of Durenor? No, Durenor probably being the most boring country on the face of Magnamund (which is not to say that I have a problem with it - not at all - but it is pretty much the safest, most secure country in the whole setting). So I gave him Slovian ancestry and a keen interest in Slovia and made those things the incentive that had pushed him through his knightly training so quickly so as to gain a position of authority that he might use to further his own personal interests and convictions. Is he a projection of me into the setting? I expect inevitably a little bit, but I hope not too much, 'cause he's kind of a disagreeable type in many situations. His interest in Slovia, however, does stem directly from my interest in the former Yugoslavia, which seems pretty strongly to be Slovia's real world equivalent (his surname [Vojske] and his horse's name [Konj] aren't actually pronounced as stupidly as they look, by the way, 'cause they are Serbo-Croat). Is he over-powerful in the setting? Straightforwardly, no. He's a bit rubbish actually. I got him into a fight in Kuchek with the intention that he should actually win it, but as I wrote it I just found that I couldn't have him win - it just didn't work! So he had to get beaten up a little bit and then get rescued - very embarrassing! ;D The only thing he's good at is talking formally and being - when he wants to be - diplomatic, but he is restricted in using this ability to its full potential by the Oath of Truthfulness. Oops. The thing that's most likely to make him Mary-Sue-ish might be the as-yet-behind-the-scenes stuff, because I've always been writing Simey in the Legends of Lone Wolf setting as reconceived by John Grant rather than the original gamebook setting. This means that all the 'sci-fi' stuff that annoyed a lot of people in the later Legends are, for me, all present and correct and are already part of Simey's story. If and when that sort of stuff ever comes to the fore, he may seem more Mary-Sue-like to some - I dunno. Is he a Mary-Sue? Well, after all the above drivelling, I can safely say: I've no idea. Any help?
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Post by zipp on Apr 18, 2008 11:13:41 GMT -5
Yoiks! Them's a good set of arguments! I don't think I could ever have analysed the Legends situation so well - and I think my fingers would've fallen off before I'd managed to write all that! Anyway, I suppose I ought to ponder Simey's Mary-Sue-ness.... First of all, a bit of a disclaimer: I picked the KotWM class by accident when I signed up on TotS, and whilst I would definitely have gone for a 'good' class rather than a 'bad' one, I think KotWM would've been close to last on my list had I known what I was doing. So I think that somewhat explains why Simey is not and could never be considered a typical KotWM. Having said that, I quickly got used to being part of the KotWM class (it probably helped that I'd inadvertantly become a class leader - how my inferiors must shake their heads in disbelief!) and found it fun to play about with what a KotWM was (hence all the MKC jokes about gambling, drinking, dwarf-tipping, transvestism....wait - what am I giving away here!?!!). Outside the WW, what was most fun was to work on the basis that the KnightsotWM were the biggest liars in Magnamund, the Oath of Truthfulness being the most scandalous front ever mounted by any organisation anywhere. Taking a Simey into the WW under those assumptions would, of course, be unreasonable and make something of a mockery of the canon setting. But as I mentioned above, it's fun to take things that don't quite fit together and try and find ways to make them work, and WW Simey may be another example (though whether I have actually made him work, others will have to decide). Did I want ot write about someone going around being all honourable and KotWM-y? No, not really. Did I want to write about someone whose main concern was the security of Durenor? No, Durenor probably being the most boring country on the face of Magnamund (which is not to say that I have a problem with it - not at all - but it is pretty much the safest, most secure country in the whole setting). So I gave him Slovian ancestry and a keen interest in Slovia and made those things the incentive that had pushed him through his knightly training so quickly so as to gain a position of authority that he might use to further his own personal interests and convictions. Is he a projection of me into the setting? I expect inevitably a little bit, but I hope not too much, 'cause he's kind of a disagreeable type in many situations. His interest in Slovia, however, does stem directly from my interest in the former Yugoslavia, which seems pretty strongly to be Slovia's real world equivalent (his surname [Vojske] and his horse's name [Konj] aren't actually pronounced as stupidly as they look, by the way, 'cause they are Serbo-Croat). Is he over-powerful in the setting? Straightforwardly, no. He's a bit rubbish actually. I got him into a fight in Kuchek with the intention that he should actually win it, but as I wrote it I just found that I couldn't have him win - it just didn't work! So he had to get beaten up a little bit and then get rescued - very embarrassing! ;D The only thing he's good at is talking formally and being - when he wants to be - diplomatic, but he is restricted in using this ability to its full potential by the Oath of Truthfulness. Oops. The thing that's most likely to make him Mary-Sue-ish might be the as-yet-behind-the-scenes stuff, because I've always been writing Simey in the Legends of Lone Wolf setting as reconceived by John Grant rather than the original gamebook setting. This means that all the 'sci-fi' stuff that annoyed a lot of people in the later Legends are, for me, all present and correct and are already part of Simey's story. If and when that sort of stuff ever comes to the fore, he may seem more Mary-Sue-like to some - I dunno. Is he a Mary-Sue? Well, after all the above drivelling, I can safely say: I've no idea. Any help? I'm just glad you're still developing Armadalus' character after all this time.
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Post by Simey on Apr 18, 2008 11:27:15 GMT -5
I'm just glad you're still developing Armadalus' character after all this time. He and Simey just kind of got stuck together. And with my apparent prediliction for writing people having arguments above all else, the fact that they antagonise each other so easily is great! Plus, it's always nice to have the option of writing about someone who's competant in action situations. Potentially they're actually a rather good team, though that's not really worked for them so far. Anyway, I'm still very grateful that you let me continue to use him!
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Post by Beowuuf on Apr 18, 2008 13:49:12 GMT -5
You forgot the brilliant part where you undermined the oath of truthfulness itself without making Simey a liar - the propensity for visions is genius. It would be an interesting character beat in another class, but giving it to someone whose word is supposed to be law, and has that sort of responsibility with his pronoucements on reality is just great to see in action.
I think the charatcer is great because it's not a mary sue, but it is reader identification at its best ... while it's nice to see heroes being heroic and knights being knightly you just know if that was us in that position we'd be a little more snide, a little more reluctant, and a little brave and a little less able. And a lot like Simey.
It's just fun to see him in action, and with his drives about his homeland he loves (but such a small concern in a way) it makes him human not just a 2 dimensional coward.
So yeah, you write what you like to see, and your interests, but Simey has always seemed liek a real character from the outset.
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Post by Samildanach on Apr 19, 2008 10:15:09 GMT -5
Now that just makes me want to go and read all of Simey's WW posts.
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Post by Beowuuf on Apr 19, 2008 10:32:12 GMT -5
do it!
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