Mary Sue and you

[Beowuuf]

Ok, after a ressurected discussion on legends over at Project Aon, I started thinking about how much of a Mary Sue or not each of our forum characters (Especially West Watch characters) are.

Do you reckon you are pure as the driven snow in the WW, or are you rampaging through the world of Magnaumnd laughing nastily and wishing Lone Wolf/Mandelon was still aorudn so they could fall in love with you and marry you?

For a definition of Mary Sue, here's a good link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_sue. Basically, as far as I'm concerned, it's where you write for a pre-existung world and introduce a new character (Mary Sue) for no actual good reason. They are either an extention of yourself rampaging through the world andmeeting everyone you want to meet, story be darned (except the story of what you'd love to do in the universe) or the character is a beloved character who shpaes the world, is not shaped by it, and whom the story serves, rather than the character serving a necessary reason in a story you wish to tell.

Alternately, you have a character you love so much in a new or shared world that they become unreal and you even distort the logic of the world you created and other charcters aroudn them just to benefit your character instead of the story.

So, I'll kick off. Is Beowuuf a Mary Sue? Well, come on, how could he be? It's not like the name is actually my own nick name from elsewhere shoved itno the world of magnamund where it doens't fit. Oh. Umm, I mean, it's not like I then went and carried on the same avatar in this forum and carried it to the West Watch where only random chance and a non-canonical addition already in place made it fit...oh, wait. Ok, what I meant is at least I changed it so that he didn't still have any distinguishing features like red eyes that didn't fit into the new canon. Oh, wait. Ok, but look, it's not like I then carried it to breaking point, picked a class I liked while still retaining the character where he wouldn't fit at all under any circumstances. Oh. Umm. OK, look, what I really meant to say it that at least he doens't have any distinguishing features that mark him as different and give him special powers. Wel, I meant not any that I created, I just sub-consciously nicked RuneDancer's bluesteel in the arm when I needed my character to obey the bluesteel for magic rule. Well, thank goodness I at least chose a class and stuck to it and didn't create one of those split personality / race types to get the benefits of being two separate thigns rather than just pickign one and conforming to established worl normality.

Oh. Wait.

Yes, that's right, Beowuuf is, sadly, so much a Mary Sue figure in his creation that the only reason not to rename him Mary Sue is because it would ironically reduce his Mary-Sue-ness. Well, ok, at least the plagirised bluesteel in the arm means he obeys some laws of magnamund physics rather thaqn just 'he can use old kingdom magic because he is awesome', which is more than can be said for Lone Wolf and the NO GM for goodness sake.

Ok, so basically what I am saying is my character rates bloody highly in his intiial creation. I could argue I wasn't going to participate in the WW to start with, nor understood the forum character dynamics, so that was why I ported across an existing persona that is essentially my web persona. Of course, the fact I found too much interest in a combined different character when I realise I wanted to enter the forum, rather than change my character, is neither here nor there! *hides in shame*

Anyway, more on Beowuuf's evolution (or lack of it) as a WW character later - my lunch is finished and a phone call interrupted too! Add your own thoughts about your own personas nd characters in the meantime!

[Maerin]

There is a lot of misconception of what might actually be a Mary Sue character. We tend to regard it as an insult, and therefore only invoke it when we want to be insulting.

Typically, the core definition of a Mary Sue is a character that represents a significant (if not necessarily large) chunk of a writer’s own personality or, more typically, the writer’s own ego. I once read someone who described a Mary Sue character as a writer’s “wish fulfillment”. Now granted, that might apply to a lot of characters, both in fan fiction AND in mainstream published fiction. Honestly thought, that is not too far from the truth. There have been more than a few published authors that have inserted what was, essentially, a Mary Sue character into their novels (either as a main character or a character that might as well be).

But usually, Mary Sues are a more recognized aspect in the world of fan fiction, though that may largely be due more to the respect readers typically hold for published authors over unpublished ones than any actually difference between fan fiction and published fictions.

Since it is typically a derogatory term, it is generally only applied to characters that have one or (usually) more of the following:
1. A tendency to be valued more by the author than by any of the story’s readers. A Mary Sue character is often recognized intuitively by a reader before it is identified in any sort of concrete fashion.
2. An ability to break the rules of a setting in either a very distinctive fashion or in multiple fashions of visible significance.
3. A strong association with more established characters in that setting (often, but certainly not always, protagonists). It is a stereotype that that association is often romantic, but it can also be a partnership association of some sort. There are even a lot of instances where it is an antagonistic one.
4. Typically badly written and/or characterized compared with other characters. Typically, a Mary Sue derives (indeed, often leeches) characterization from those around the character, while not having any intrinsic characterization him- or herself. There are exceptions, but most writers are actually quite bad at truly writing “themselves” as a character into a given piece of work.

Now, all that said, what may start as a Mary Sue character may not remain one. In fact, it often does not, particularly in long-term serial fiction. The ability to remain apart from, and yet have significant influence over, a given story setting is not a stable ability. Eventually, either the character and that character's story gets more solidly tied to the setting (at which point it might even be regarded as one of the best characters in a given fiction setting), or, more typically, the writer stops using the character entirely as the character gets less and less useful for telling the story the writer might want to tell (of course, this can also lead to a writer stopping his or her writing entirely).

[Beowuuf]

Indeed, I think Mary Sue is a derogatory term for the wrong side of something that can happen and be used normally. I thnk because of the sheer weight of badly done versions. There is nothing wrong with loving a character and creating a world for them, but the world should flow out of who they are, and only a rounded being or parallel interest in the world can generate that sort of thing well. And once generated, the rules of who the character and world are should not change because you like the character too much to let them be a rounded human being, who has flaws, makes mistakes, has limits, doesn't know everything, doesn't know everyone, and is shaped by their surrounding not shaping them.

In a way, Lone Wolf is the ultimate Mary Sue, but works because he is everyone's wish fulfillment, not merely the author's. Plus, while he manages more and more to become stupidly powerful, and meet everyone up to and including the gods themselves, the world is never distorted for him. Just he expands and moves alot around the world. Lone Wolf, compared to the original creation of magnamund, skates close to being called a mary sue I feel except there is an awareness that the world does not exist just for him, although of course he gets so powerful it seems to bend around him at times. However, GM series aside there are still great areas of the world where the kai are not known, lone wolf can meet people who distrust, hate, fear and certainly don't know him, and while the format of the gamebook distates the plot does centre around him and him doing everything, people still make their moves and esentially make up for his shortcomings (weak LWs) or could have managed without him. Sometimes.

Even the closer Mary Sue analogy of 'putting yourself into an established universe' could be done well, and so not need to be derided. The trouble is, the author would have to have an open writing style so their character and wish fulfiller was inclusive to people reading it (the 'we're all fans of the show/films/books, who wouldn't love to be in this situation), and the story, focus and already set rules fo the universe would have to be obeyed. The heroes are still as heroic, don't change their characteristics unless the plot/situation dictates, and would ahve the same reactions to the Mary Sue as to any other new charcter introduced.

[Maerin]

Essentially yes. There ARE, in fact, established authors that stated that certain characters carried a significant measure of that author into the story and were, initially, Mary Sues according to how the term is defined (representative of the author's ego, not very tied to or influenced by the setting, purpose more wish-fulfillment to be in a settting than actually contribute to a story, etc.). Anne McCaffrey has said that in the past regarding her character Menolly in her Pern series, for instance. But, in all such examples by published authors, that character eventually either became a real participatory in the setting (which makes it no longer a Mary Sue) or is dropped by the author entirely. In my experience, fan fiction tends to be the same. Though there are a lot of fan fiction authors that start out with a character that fits one or most of the criteria of a Mary Sue (that tends to be one of the initial motivators to write at all), that situation tends to disappear fairly quickly if the author writes very much at all with that character (either because the author starts to realize how boring a Mary Sue character can be or because he/she accepts feedback to change or drop the character to make it a bit more meaningful).

Lone Wolf, like most gamebook characters, is not, by definition, a Mary Sue character for a number of reasons. The predominent reason, however, is that he is not a solid representation of the ego of the player within the story. There is some, though only a quite small and scattered, mechanism for projecting your personality through Lone Wolf by playing him. The game play options of the Lone Wolf books are just too limited to project ego through actual choices, particularly since the decision tree limits are driven almost entirely by the needs of each of the book's story over the desires of the player (unless that player's desires happen to always coincide completely with the options offered; and that is fairly improbable). In other words, while you can play the game books and make you Lone Wolf, you cannot make Lone Wolf you in any great measure. "Wish fulfillment" to participate in a setting does not alone define a Mary Sue character.

[Samildanach]

Having been a member of the NaNoWriMo forums for two or three years, I've seen more Mary Sue-ness than is healthy. Really, it's amazing how many amateur writers can't drag themselves away from that; and yes, fanficcers are the worst for this.

Personally, I don't think I can write Mary Sues. I just don't see the world that way. But I don't suppose I'm the best judge...

[zipp]

None of my characters so far have been very Mary Sueish.

The original Zipp comes close, but her desire to do good was offset by the fact that she belonged to a race which was hated and feared. She couldn't be everyone's savior, or even fit into most of society, because of her heritage. Because humanities goals often did not intersect with the Beast Creature's goals, she found herself having to choose constantly between the two races she considered herself to belong to.

Cloe was the most complex of the characters I played on the WW. Because of her early influence by PT's ruby, she became independant and powerful before she was equipped to deal with it. Because of this, she became haughty and selfish. Cloe's main desire was to survive while furthering her achievement of power. By the end of her plot line, she had become less willing to kill, however, showing her tendency towards good (as long as it didn't interfere with her plans).

Hazelae was the most cookie cutter character I've played. Pure evil, that one. Nothing much to say.

The new Zipp is burdened by the legacy of her namesake, feeling a need to live up to the tremendous responsibilities that have been placed on her as head of the Yellow Robes and the combined Cat Tribes. As she is also revered as a goddess, she has not had much time to discover who she is, making her shy and uncomfortable in intimate situations. Also, she has less respect for humanity than her predescessor. Though she appears to be a good character, she is actually walking a dangerously thin neutral line. With the right words and persuasions, she could easily be made into one of the more powerful lieutenants of the Ceners (who are working towards that goal). She would never help the Darklords or Dark Kai, as she shares with other cat creatures a natural hate of Naar.

[Doomy]

How do you guys feel about the fact that many of your characters don't have very Dever-esque names?

[zipp]

Apr 16, 2008 15:21:06 GMT -5 Doomy said:

How do you guys feel about the fact that many of your characters don't have very Dever-esque names?

Zipp and Cloe are beast creatures, having different names than anyone mentioned in Dever's books.

Hazelae is a demon and her name is reminiscent of her nature to fool people into thinking she's less than what she is.

[Beowuuf]

Embarrassed about the mary-sueness of beowuuf, but think I do ok with any NPC and any character names i come up with, Beowuuf's real name included (Tamas seems Dessi-like, though not sure Rehme really is, perhaps there's a story there, who knows)

I did have the start of a post about beouuf in the WW, but it got distracted several times - will post it at some point!

[Doomy]

I'd like to know why a wolf-creature is a high-ranking Vakeros knight, but I don't want to know right now because I'm hoping our characters will meet during the Casiorn Challenge and you'll either explain it then or get shot to bits.

[Beowuuf]

Oh, it's already been explained at length, so I'm likely to blow it off in the challenge. Heh, infact I lucked in Avalar finding Hunting moon, who had alreayd met me in the KDJT!.

If you really wanna know the story, go over to the WW and look at the story of Beowuuf thread - passed my 'intro' story that didn't explain anything and a WW section I cut out, is a five part story of explaining exactly how a wolf creature gets to be a high ranking vakeros...or is that the other way around....

Ok, since I'm answering the question, let's dig otu the post and finish it about Beowuuf's continuing Mary-Sue-ness

[Beowuuf]

Anyway, so now we've established Beowuuf was a total Mary Sue at concerption, did he actually amalgamate into the story as Maerin said a Mary Sue could?

So, Beowuuf's past - does he shape the world, or does the world shape him? Well, the human side has a normal name (hopefully for the Vakeros), normal appearance, and is a normal Dessi warrior to start with. No big personal tragedies, family with a known mother and father but not uber-important, 'strong blood' but that seems a necessary component of being a Vakeros from the RPG. He's a good soldier, spotted early for the command path but then you do need to have your hero be something heroic most of the time (Dharn and Simey being greta exceptions for two different reasons). Beowuuf is not the most skilled nor reknowned nor knowledgeable leader, simply someone of many who has been noticed. A slighty Mary Sue is that he changed his college - Daernath to later Kaenos. While there is a story reason, and a character point of him being 'unsettled in his skin' even before the accident, he could have simply been Kaenos and less important from the start. Throw in a subtle reference and potential future path in Keron, and that's a bit too 'ooh, that would be cool, so many college choices' instead of obeying the d20 laws of Vakeros society. Minor quibble aside, he only went above captain level due to the external pressures of the tots ranking system, and he has never been in a major known conflict, certainly not one he has Sole-y led. He seems well liked in his circles, but that would be a normal character trait tied in to the reasons he was thought to be potential daernath material (charasmatic and decisive, never highlighted as having exceptional tactical ability nor knowledge) . A few minor bumps but otherwise hopefully a normal background of a champion you'd want to follow the story of.

Wolf side - normal wolf in the wolf tribe, hopefully with a normal name, following a character class hinted at by Zipp, although it has been expanded upon in parallel and influence the character. At no point has a wolf assassin ability pushed the story or indeed been explicitly used for good (infact Beowuuf gets called a cack-handed sod the first time he gets in touch with the memories of his wolf side properly and tries to use a skill, because as much as I like my characters its too much fun not to smack them down every so often!). Sorba should have been an aspiring, not key, member of the established yellow robes investigating hazelae in kaag. When the timing proved to be problematic it was a story point that he infact moved of his own volition, and a culmination of that and helping Zipp's story in Eshnar that gave Sorba vision -seeing abilities. This was not a normal wolf class talent (as defined), so not pushing that agenda, but not unusual for magnamund. And most importantly, this vision thing has not helped Sorba in any way (indeed he would have been outcast if widely known, and it certainly never helped him). Again perhaps a few bruises but mostly from reaching too far for story points.

So, how is Tamas/Sorba/Beowuuf regarded now? Well, for a wolf creature walking around he does seem to be accepted easily - but usually for the story reason of 'ok, how many times do you want to have beowuuf have to prove himself, and how many posts does he need to waste on that.' Usually there are reasons of necessity or corroborating source that have Beowuuf accepted. I can't think of a time 'they accepted him as he's likeable.' Beowuuf might have developed a bit or a rapour quickly with the crown prince of Bor, but again that was partially driven by tots dynamics - to be dwarven ambassador, you need to have something happen with a high ranking dwarf. And as subtly indicated, while Torfan might have been intrigued by Beowuuf's honourable nature regarding his foes, it was more political wheels turning that put Beowuuf in that crosshairs.

Characters don't seem unneccessarily fond or enamoured of Beowuuf, EXCEPT for the huge reason of the WW dynamic. Story points should really be to do with the charatcers. Some of my over-reaching arcs use NPCs in the sidelines to ensure Beowuuf doesn't have to slog through alot of boring footwork later to set up the next story arc - it can thump him fully formed when he leasts expects. So I always feel honour bound to have people not so subtly link to BEowuuf as often as possible. Hopefully this isn't the Mary Sue reason, and if this were a short story instead of a communal RP project then Duman would have forgotten all about the wolf by now, for example!

So, so far I think Beowuuf has linked into the world. How about his character? Interestingly, lots of 'Mary Sue' litmus tests seem to get hung up about lots of different things liek this. I think becuase the underlying cause of a 'Mary-Sue' is to care about the character instead of the story / world. Hence, an overly angst-y 'poor me and my problems' charatcer, o0r a 2D one with too little or too many flaws, or one with a personality not appropriate for the context is seen as bad. Of course, some of these are interesting, in moderation. And especially divergent personality from the norm, since confrontation gives good story impetus, and also exceptional people tend to be the ones to do things.

So, is Beowuf overly angsty. Eh, maybe. Then again, he shrugs it off when he needs to shrug it off later in the story. But yes, he thinks alot about stuff. This is probably more a writer flaw than character though, stick two of my characters together and they'll talk at each other instead of looking around or doing anything, separate them and they'll just engage in internal dialogue with themselves instead. I don't think he carries alot of baggage that isn't story-focused baggage, or normal. He has fundamental flaws that will ebb and flow as his circumstances change such as a fundamental restlessness.

Is he too competent? I don't think so, put him in his environment or make him reply on his training and he doesn't disappoint. Stick him out of that environment, for example on the deck of a ship or in the Darklands attacking flying creatures, and suddenly he's slightly below par and playing catch-up. He has the warrior skills of someone advanced, but no more that his station nor reality (surround him by multiple opponents and he's in trouble if he can't get aid or dispatch them quick) and that doesn't mean he can't be outclassed whether he is aware of it or not by skilled opponents. And even when he has the upper hand, he can still make basic mistakes (or even trip as has happened once!)

So, have I managed to let Magnamund and the West Watch properly watch over, erode and form the Mary Sue core of Beowuuf into a real, grounded character who seems to be a natural part of the world, and can actually co-exist and move about without ruining things as he moves?

I'd hope so, but perhaps I'm not the best person to answer that! Certainly not at this time in the evening. Sorry for the rambling post, I might try to tighten it up another time. I'm more interested in other people's characters's andopinions on them in fact

[Maerin]

*chuckles* Well-reasoned. I would only seek to expand on a few points.

1. Neither angst nor first-person introspection on the part of a character are inherently symptoms of a Mary Sue character. In fact, quite the opposite: typically true character angst is a sign a character is not a Mary Sue at all because the character is displaying a depth beyond that of the author (though it may be symptomatic of something else). Remember, Mary Sue characters are most commonly wish-fulfillment characters on the part of an author, and generally are quite two-dimensional when one removes all the obvious wish-fulfillment aspects back out of them. Even if that author is manifesting some personal thought process, idea or motivation through the lens of the written character (and that is pretty normal, all things considered), that sort of thing only crosses the line when it is clear that the author is driving the angst or the thought process upon the story and setting (and the character itself too, for that matter).

It's a common misconception that most Mary Sues are angsty, because readers tend to dislike angsty or overly-thoughtful characters as much as they can dislike an obvious Mary Sue. However, those cannot generally be lumped together without some other factor connecting them.

2. One important question to answer: is Beowuuf "you"? Has he ever completely lacked self-identity aside from his author? If the answer to both is no, and I expect from what I've read that is the case, then both make for a very strong arguement that Beowuuf likely not only is not a Mary Sue, but also has never been one.

3. Mary Sues do not typically have a lot of longevity about them, as I mentioned previously. You've written A LOT about Beowuuf at this point...

4. Characters that you invent and write as part of Beowuuf's story typically do not count when considering whether Beowuuf might be a Mary Sue from the standpoint of being over-significantly known and/or renown as a character of the setting. Further, characters invented and portrayed by co-authors in West Watch typically do count as well. What typically defines a Mary Sue from the standpoint of being over-significantly known and/or renown as a character of the setting is the character's associations with establishment characters in the setting. Are you well-known/admired by official/"canon" characters of the setting, or characters of obvious and profound impact and influence in the world, or characters of great past significance to the story and setting of West Watch (examples of the latter would be significant West Watch characters whose authors are no longer writing them)?

It is probably worth noting that most any Mary Sue character in my experience does not require a particularly robust analysis to identify that character as such.

[Simey]

You shouldn't be embarrassed about Beowuuf's apparent Mary-Sue-ness!

I'm not saying that this isn't an interesting discussion - it seriously is - but personally, I wouldn't give a monkey's whether a character can be defined as a Mary Sue or not. The only thing worth worrying about is whether the character works in the story and world or not. And Beowuuf - outlandish and pretty un-Magnamund-y though he may be in concept - absolutely does! He has become an integral part of the West Watch story through the way you have woven him and his story carefully into the world all the while being aware of and taking into consideration his unusualness.

I must admit I was pretty sceptical when I started reading your first posts about an under-cover wolfman Vakeros knight sneaking through the forests of Sommerlund. Had your attitude come across as I want to play a wolf-creature Vakeros so I just will without bothering about the fact that that is waaaaay and taking any steps to reconcile that then my scepticism might have been warranted. But your take seems to have been much more I want to play a wolf-creature and I'd like him to be a Vakeros, but I realise that that is a pretty big stretch for this setting, so I'm gonna put a whole of thought into how such a character might come about and work on him and his background to fit the setting rather than just expecting the setting to take him on just 'cause I want it to. Personally, I was sold on Beowuuf pretty darned quickly.

It's a fun thing to do to take two story elements that don't seem to quite fit together and to figure out a way of making them mesh. Done well it can make for terrific, rejuvinating story-telling. After all, if no one ever dared to change anything about a given setting, things'd get a bit dull and predictable after a while. The trick probably is to change things convincingly and thoughtfully and for good story-led reasons, not just barge around wantonly smashing up the place for the sake of it.

If someone wants to judge a character as bad just because they think they can label it a Mary Sue, that's up to them. Often they may be right. But just as often they may be being unnecessarily predjudiced by mere terminology. Probably most important is: do I like reading this story about this character? Yes: well, carry on reading and enjoy. No: well, maybe read something else then.

It's probably like that with the Legends. I guess most of John Grant's characters could be labelled Mary Sues in one way or another. Some people have a problem with that and the way he treats Magnamund in general, not by any means entirely conforming to the world and its reality as laid out in the gamebooks. Personally, I don't mind because I thoroughly enjoy reading the books and I actually like most of the new ideas that he bolts onto to the existing setting. Qinefer's maybe not the most interesting character ever, but she doesn't wind me up, so I'm not worried.

Okay, I've waffled on pointlessly for waaaaay too long, all the while skillfully avoiding the subject of whether Simey is a Mary Sue or not (I suspect the answer is a big, fat 'YES', but I'll have to think about it).


EDIT: Aaaaaand....in the time it's taken me to posts this rubbish, Beowuuf and Maerin have put it all and more much eloquently and intelligently than I could above.

[Beowuuf]

Did you see the ressurected post that got me thinking about this in the first place on aon? You weren't around so I defended Qinefer and Alyss and Legends, then gave it a kicking at the end when it wasn't expcting it about some small things