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Post by Al on Jun 13, 2008 6:18:27 GMT -5
Mmmm - and I thought that would be a really cool skill to have, I guess I was wrong
Also, if a char has more than one attack, can he make more than one shot? I thought you could only ever take up to one shot per turn (unless you had some sort of special ability) but now that I am looking for it I cannot find it
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Post by eviltb on Jun 13, 2008 7:58:37 GMT -5
A characters Base Attack Bonus (BAB) determines how many attacks, ranged or melee, he makes in a round. So a BAB of +6/+1 would allow either 2 swings of an axe or 2 shots with a bow. If a character has an ability that gives extra attacks on top of that base, then that is noted in the special abilites of the character. Usualy these abilities state what BAB is used for these attacks.
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Post by Maerin on Jun 13, 2008 11:13:28 GMT -5
I think Maerin was arguing that some aspects of the Buccaneer are very broken... To an extent true, but only to an extent. What my views might be of the Buccaneer class (or any other existing ones) is kind of a side issue here. I looked at this class completely on its own, however, and not in comparison to other classes except in terms overall on how resulting characters compared with resulting characters of a given level of all the various classes. That is why I made sample Woodland Ranger characters at 1st level, 8th level, and 18th level, just to see how they looked. |
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Post by Maerin on Jun 13, 2008 11:17:14 GMT -5
Mmmm - and I thought that would be a really cool skill to have, I guess I was wrong It is when viewed in terms isolated and non-game mechanical description, but it is not (at least not as worded) when one meshs it into the existing game system. That view actually goes for quite a few of the abilities as presently worded. They are good ideas in principle; it is the practice as things are right now that makes them problematic. Principle is all well and good, but it is principle that permitted the Kai Lord class to become such a broken class and it is principle that screws up all spellcasting classes by not providing them enough skill points. |
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Post by Maerin on Jun 13, 2008 11:20:50 GMT -5
In gaming mechanical terms, if you don't have artisan tools for the craft check, unless the GM says otherwise you only seem to take a -2 on the skill check with improvised tools. So really a quarterstaff should be not too difficult to make I think Exactly true. In fact, according to the rules it takes....0 time to make, irrespective of whether "time" in this case is measured in weeks, days, hours, minutes... Quarterstaves are merely one of the many demonstrations of why the d20 Craft rules are broke in practice (who ever it was that initially decided and designed that all item costs in d20, and therefore LWRPG, could be used to derive item creation time is an idiot).  |
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Post by Maerin on Jun 13, 2008 11:25:57 GMT -5
A characters Base Attack Bonus (BAB) determines how many attacks, ranged or melee, he makes in a round. Mostly true. There are weapons, such as a crossbow, that typically require a move action to reload. By virtue of that rule, one can only make one attack with a weapon such as that per round, irrespective of base attack bonus, simply because (except in extremely isolated exceptions) any time one is making more than one attack in a round one is taking a full-round action to do this (which means one cannot take an additional move action as well...unless again one of another small set of extremely isolated exceptions happens to counter that). However, to bring this back to a longbows case, a longbow does not require a move action to reload (reloading is, effectively, a free action) and so theoretically can be fired multiple times in a single round using some combination of base attack bonus and/or some class ability resembling Quick Shot. |
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Post by Al on Jun 14, 2008 9:58:14 GMT -5
I was under the mistaken impression that all missile weapons required a move action to reload - so for the quick shot what I may do is give a + 2 bonus to the BAB which would allow addition shots with the bow earlier than he would be allowed to make an additional attack with a hand weapon. It would also allow four shots per round at lvls 18 and above.
With regard to the quarterstaff making abilities - I thought I was misreading the crafting rules as they made no sense to me - I guess I read them right all along! I think I will replace that with the ability to craft bows, arrows and quarterstaffs without the appropriate craft skills with a rank level equal to his class lvl, while in the woods without equipment or the like.
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Post by Al on Jun 14, 2008 17:49:34 GMT -5
Hey All
I have updated the initial post with everything, I have clarified the progression, and tried to make it more logical using Mearin's logic of creating a first, 8th and 18th lvl character. Some of the bonuses are pretty high in certain skills, but that is the point of it after all - he is a sneaky peaky roguish kinda character.
I look forward to any and all feedback.
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Post by Maerin on Jun 14, 2008 19:14:59 GMT -5
I was under the mistaken impression that all missile weapons required a move action to reload - so for the quick shot what I may do is give a + 2 bonus to the BAB which would allow addition shots with the bow earlier than he would be allowed to make an additional attack with a hand weapon. It would also allow four shots per round at lvls 18 and above. I would stay away from modifying Base Combat Skill for a number of different reasons. It suffices to add one additional attack, possibly at a penalty. |
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Post by Maerin on Jun 14, 2008 19:21:04 GMT -5
With regard to the quarterstaff making abilities - I thought I was misreading the crafting rules as they made no sense to me - I guess I read them right all along! I think I will replace that with the ability to craft bows, arrows and quarterstaffs without the appropriate craft skills with a rank level equal to his class lvl, while in the woods without equipment or the like. What would be the point of removing need for spending Ranks in a skill (let alone three skills) whilst at the same time providing a class with a large number of Skill Ranks per level? That reason aside, the problem with that idea is that it makes making mastercraft and superior items incredibly easy for this character at moderate levels, which again rather invalidates characters that sacrifice what might be necessary to make these things. Better to provide skill bonuses to those Craft skills, so as to encourage someone to put Ranks in those skills. It could be a progressive bonus over several character levels through different abilities. |
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Post by Beowuuf on Jun 15, 2008 2:08:28 GMT -5
I was under the mistaken impression that all missile weapons required a move action to reload - so for the quick shot what I may do is give a + 2 bonus to the BAB which would allow addition shots with the bow earlier than he would be allowed to make an additional attack with a hand weapon. It would also allow four shots per round at lvls 18 and above. I would stay away from modifying Base Combat Skill for a number of different reasons. It suffices to add one additional attack, possibly at a penalty. Perhaps simple allow them, during a fullround attack, to use their 'offhand attack' slot to make another attack. I forget if the penalty is -2 to all rolls anyway, or if this was only the knight's penalty and general characters take a higher penalty (is it -4 for 'dual weilding' ) |
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Post by Al on Jun 15, 2008 2:24:24 GMT -5
With regard to the quarterstaff making abilities - I thought I was misreading the crafting rules as they made no sense to me - I guess I read them right all along! I think I will replace that with the ability to craft bows, arrows and quarterstaffs without the appropriate craft skills with a rank level equal to his class lvl, while in the woods without equipment or the like. What would be the point of removing need for spending Ranks in a skill (let alone three skills) whilst at the same time providing a class with a large number of Skill Ranks per level? That reason aside, the problem with that idea is that it makes making mastercraft and superior items incredibly easy for this character at moderate levels, which again rather invalidates characters that sacrifice what might be necessary to make these things. Better to provide skill bonuses to those Craft skills, so as to encourage someone to put Ranks in those skills. It could be a progressive bonus over several character levels through different abilities. I guess my problem with this one is trying to make something that is a suitable and sensible ability for the class and make it 'jell' with, as you describe, a broken skill set in Crafting. How does this sound then; In a forest or wooded environment, the Forester gains an additional plus five to the appropriate class skills to make quarterstaves, bows and arrows. In addition, the Forester need expend no resources or need no equipment to create these weapons, making them instead from nature's bounty. Accordingly, should craft skills become a class skill of the forester then? I would stay away from modifying Base Combat Skill for a number of different reasons. It suffices to add one additional attack, possibly at a penalty. I was actually meaning increasing it just for the Bow, so the char would in essence have two BABS, one for all weapons and a slightly higher one for the bow. Would this alleviate your concerns? |
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Post by Maerin on Jun 15, 2008 10:36:04 GMT -5
In a forest or wooded environment, the Forester gains an additional plus five to the appropriate class skills to make quarterstaves, bows and arrows. In addition, the Forester need expend no resources or need no equipment to create these weapons, making them instead from nature's bounty. Hmm. Here's a slight tweak, that I think keeps the spirit of what you are shooting for. While in a forest or wooded environment, the Forester can make quarterstaves, bows and arrows with a +3 bonus to the Craft skill checks and without taking the -2 penalty for using improvised tools in place of appropriate artisan's tools. Additionally, the materials cost to craft these weapons is reduced to zero. Accordingly, should craft skills become a class skill of the forester then? Seems that should now be the case, yes. I was actually meaning increasing it just for the Bow, so the char would in essence have two BABS, one for all weapons and a slightly higher one for the bow. Would this alleviate your concerns? About the best one can do there and stay within the bounds of game balance is provide a class ability that reads the same as, say, the Sage of Lyris The Sword is as Mighty as the Pen. In short, the character uses his class level as his Base Combat Skill (that is the term for Base Attack Bonus in the LW RPG) for using bows. So yeah, essentially you do end up with two different Base Combat Skill progressions and, at various levels, you will occasionally be making one additional attack using that weapon that you might otherwise not be using. I tend to prefer that over an actual bonus to Base Combat Skill (one of several problems I have with the Kai Lord class Lore Circles), which can occasionally skew more things than just either number of attacks or a slight increase in combat accuracy. |
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Post by eviltb on Jun 15, 2008 14:00:37 GMT -5
I believe Quick Shot gives an extra attack, but that and all other attacks are at -2. Its supposed to simulate the "quick" shooting, as in not aiming that precisely in order to get more shots off.
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Post by Al on Jun 15, 2008 14:34:13 GMT -5
I believe Quick Shot gives an extra attack, but that and all other attacks are at -2. Its supposed to simulate the "quick" shooting, as in not aiming that precisely in order to get more shots off. Where is this from? I like the idea, but what is your attack roll for the extra attack? |
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