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Post by NightHunter on May 1, 2008 17:29:10 GMT -5
animalsaviors.org/There is a video that show live animal being skin alive in China(well that's what they said). Not to watch if you are faint hearted. Why I'm talking about this, it's because I'm suspicious about the real goal of these animals rights organisms. Just there, they are speaking for animals rights in a country where they doesn't care about Men's rights. I wonder why suddenly some organizations can save animals before man's one. In China, with 1,3 billions of peoples, that's a lot of mouths to feed every day. They put every resources of protein useful and it will not be tomorrow we will see an end to this. I'm against animal free cruelty nor seeing skinned alive animal but I must say that animals rights organizations push too far there campaign to get a flow of cash coming. So, what's do you really think of this?
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Post by Al on May 2, 2008 4:44:47 GMT -5
I do not know about that video, but I know that the vidoes of the seals being 'skinned alive' are not true descriptions of what is happening - seals have the same kind of reactions as chickens do when they die, so a dead seal being skinned looks like it is alive, works well for the anti-sealing lobby.
And yes, people care more about animals than humans, and as the seal lobby demonstrates, the value of life is directly related to the cuteness of the life-bearer.
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Post by zipp on May 2, 2008 11:12:17 GMT -5
Also, I think people have to be careful when they try to impose their society's values on another society. For instance, there was the whole scare when Westerners realized that it is acceptable to eat dogs and cats in some Asian countries. A lot of people jumped on a bandwagon to try to "educate" and stop this, but they are missing the point that people need to eat, and sometimes that means eating whatever they can get their hands on.
I mean, most countries are disgusted at what Americans will eat... basically anything deep fried.
Back on topic, I try to be concsciencious (sp?) about certain things, like buying (when possible) from local farmers and not supporting the slaughterhouses, but I agree that often people go too far in trying to impose their standards of right and wrong on others.
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Post by NightHunter on May 2, 2008 12:26:31 GMT -5
zipp: Your opinion resume well mine. I'm totally right with you. People should be more moderate and thinking by themselves before saying anything. Al: You must be aware of that incident with Paul Watson in late March/early April about the seal hunt in Eastern Canada. For those who don't know him, he's the CEO of the Sea Shephard Conservation Society. He come every year in Canada to harrass the seal hunters. A boat of seal hunter had remained took in the ices and the coastal guard have to towing them out. For a reason not definite yet today, the boat turn upside down and the 4 fishermen who were on board perished. What Watson has find to say was that the death of these 4 fishermen was nothing to compare with that thousands of seals one. Not need to say to you that a lifting of the shields have been made by the touched families and thus of the population of Eastern Canada. Seriously, whatever he do now, nobody will hear him in Eastern Canada for a long time. He's goal to sensibilize this very population which seal hunt is a part of their economics just touch the bottom of the ocean right now. As for me, I don't buy fur or leather, only synthetic one. It's just a personal belief and I won't kick ass to the ones that buying it.
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Post by Black Cat on May 2, 2008 12:29:45 GMT -5
Simply said, I don't care what people are eating. It's the way they kill the animal to eat it that disgusts me. I remember a few years ago when they showed that report on TV about animal cruelty in different countries. In China, they showed that restaurant that was serving cats and dogs as dishes. I remember the images of that little Chinese kid (he was maybe 4-5 years old) going in the restaurant's backyard with his father where live cats and dogs were kept in cages. The kid selected which animal he wanted to eat, and then they showed images of a cat drowning slowly in somekind of bathtub. That really traumatized me. Later in the same show, they showed skinned animal that were still alive but ready for sale in a place that looked like a public market. I don't care if they eat cats, but find a way to kill them that is not as cruel. When my grandma talks to me about how they used to kill pigs in her youth (they cut the throat), I somehow find it less cruel than drowning. As for the seals, I'm really, really tired to see these European know-it-all artists coming here and asking Canadian government to stop the hunting. Remember Paul McCartney and Heather Mills coming in Canada to protest against seal hunt in 2006? They took a picture together with a whitecoat (the little white baby seal). How cute... But dammit! Canada has banned the whitecoat hunt in 1987! The hunters use the rifle (like any other deer hunters of this world) or the hakapik (the hammer/metallic stake) to kill the seal, and it has been proved that the hakapik, used correctly, can kill painlessly. Add to that that there an estimation of 5 millions of harp seals in the world and that Canadian hunters can only kill between 30,000 and 40,000 each year, I say that these European know-it-all artists can go f*** themselves! End of rant. ;D @nh: I have modified your first post for clarity: milliard doesn't exist in English; it's billion.  |
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Post by Al on May 3, 2008 9:21:36 GMT -5
Actually, ol' Pual and Heather broke our conservation laws when they did that - too bad the government did not have the guts to charge them with harrassing wildlife! What gets me about the European know it alls, is that the seal hunt is as human a way to slaughter any other animal (according to the WWF at least, and not the wrestlers), and that many practices in Europe are far worse than this (Spanish overfishing, French foi gras, to name two). It all boils down to cuteness, and that is a really, REALLY, disturbing position to come from. zipp - I would be careful to say that being culturally sensitive means turning a blind eye to barbaric practices. Culture should not be used as a 'get out of jail free' card. Some practices may be important for the cultural life blood of a community (for example Jewish and Islamic practices for the killing of meat), but others are not of the same type. Your dog and cat example, though, is interesting - some cultures think killing cows is abhorrent, but we do it routinely in the West. |
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Post by zipp on May 3, 2008 11:27:21 GMT -5
Actually, ol' Pual and Heather broke our conservation laws when they did that - too bad the government did not have the guts to charge them with harrassing wildlife! What gets me about the European know it alls, is that the seal hunt is as human a way to slaughter any other animal (according to the WWF at least, and not the wrestlers), and that many practices in Europe are far worse than this (Spanish overfishing, French foi gras, to name two). It all boils down to cuteness, and that is a really, REALLY, disturbing position to come from. zipp - I would be careful to say that being culturally sensitive means turning a blind eye to barbaric practices. Culture should not be used as a 'get out of jail free' card. Some practices may be important for the cultural life blood of a community (for example Jewish and Islamic practices for the killing of meat), but others are not of the same type. Your dog and cat example, though, is interesting - some cultures think killing cows is abhorrent, but we do it routinely in the West. Certainly, Al. It's just that I think people have to be more careful about what exactly they label "barbaric." As you point out, some of the practices that the Western world commonly engages in are considered barbaric by Eastern adherents, and who are we to say they are wrong (or right)? On the other hand, some places (in America as well) still sell underage girls for sex... and I can't say that I agree with that or consider it culturally significant. But even in that case, I hesitate to try to place my values on someone else. I'm so individualistic I border on Anarcy, though more the benign "every man is an island" side of it. |
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Post by Al on May 4, 2008 9:01:53 GMT -5
On the other hand, some places (in America as well) still sell underage girls for sex... and I can't say that I agree with that or consider it culturally significant. But even in that case, I hesitate to try to place my values on someone else. I'm so individualistic I border on Anarcy, though more the benign "every man is an island" side of it. It is not really about placing cultural norms upon others - it is about protecting human dignity and basic rights. If people are not given free consent (which with underage marriage their is no free consent), then it is abusive and others have the right to step in, if people are adults, and have access to information and choice, then no one else should be able to get involved, that is my opinion, and it is based out of a respect of human dignity as being the basis of action. As Romeo Delaire states, no human is more human than anyone else. |
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Post by Black Cat on May 4, 2008 10:18:53 GMT -5
As Romeo Delaire states, no human is more human than anyone else. Did you read that in his book? Or in the movie? I met Dallaire once, a very, very kind man. We talked for a while about other things than what he lived (For those that don't know: he was the leader of the UN Forces in Ruanda when the massacre happened, and he couldn't do anything because of the guys that were staying in offices in New York weren't listening to him. The guy was totally destructed mentally when he came back) and he took a genuine interest in the young starting journalist that I was at that time. |
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Post by NightHunter on May 4, 2008 12:13:09 GMT -5
In China, they showed that restaurant that was serving cats and dogs as dishes. I remember the images of that little Chinese kid (he was maybe 4-5 years old) going in the restaurant's backyard with his father where live cats and dogs were kept in cages. The kid selected which animal he wanted to eat, and then they showed images of a cat drowning slowly in somekind of bathtub. Do our way of cooking lobsters is better? I know and it's disturbing me like anyone else. It's just because we are not used to eat ours dogs or cats like they do. Later in the same show, they showed skinned animal that were still alive but ready for sale in a place that looked like a public market. I don't care if they eat cats, but find a way to kill them that is not as cruel. When my grandma talks to me about how they used to kill pigs in her youth (they cut the throat), I somehow find it less cruel than drowning. Two videos here, Peta's Meet your meat and Earthlings. Both on Youtube. You will see that throat cutting a pig to kill it still exist. But Peta and another animals rights organisms tell us between the line, the only way to not be cruel, is simply not to kill thems. I find this logic really out of the reality. As for the seals, I'm really, really tired to see these European know-it-all artists coming here and asking Canadian government to stop the hunting. Remember Paul McCartney and Heather Mills coming in Canada to protest against seal hunt in 2006? They took a picture together with a whitecoat (the little white baby seal). How cute... But dammit! Canada has banned the whitecoat hunt in 1987! The hunters use the rifle (like any other deer hunters of this world) or the hakapik (the hammer/metallic stake) to kill the seal, and it has been proved that the hakapik, used correctly, can kill painlessly. Add to that that there an estimation of 5 millions of harp seals in the world and that Canadian hunters can only kill between 30,000 and 40,000 each year, I say that these European know-it-all artists can go f*** themselves! I agree with you here. And I'm pretty sure that some, I say some, artists like Paul and co. may not doing it for free. It's just speculation here, but if they pay some artists to do publicity, where the cash came from? Poor innocent donator that must pay for that believing it will save all animals from cruelty. Really, I won't give any cash to them. I prefer adopting a cat or a dog in a shelter. @nh: I have modified your first post for clarity: milliard doesn't exist in English; it's billion. Thanks ;D |
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Post by Black Cat on May 4, 2008 12:35:23 GMT -5
Do our way of cooking lobsters is better? Ahah! Do lobsters feel pain? It's still out for debate: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobster#Capacity_for_pain_and_suffering. Same thing for all the fishes: they don't have neocortex to feel pain, but some studies claim that they can have some reactions similar to pain. |
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Post by zipp on May 4, 2008 12:44:44 GMT -5
On the other hand, some places (in America as well) still sell underage girls for sex... and I can't say that I agree with that or consider it culturally significant. But even in that case, I hesitate to try to place my values on someone else. I'm so individualistic I border on Anarcy, though more the benign "every man is an island" side of it. It is not really about placing cultural norms upon others - it is about protecting human dignity and basic rights. If people are not given free consent (which with underage marriage their is no free consent), then it is abusive and others have the right to step in, if people are adults, and have access to information and choice, then no one else should be able to get involved, that is my opinion, and it is based out of a respect of human dignity as being the basis of action. As Romeo Delaire states, no human is more human than anyone else. I don't think we're neccesarily disagreeing. But I do think that the words "human dignitiy" and "basic rights" cannot be easily defined. For me, human dignity is the ability to appreciate the complex patterns of the clouds in the sky. And basic right means the ability to appreciate it whenever I want to while enjoying the act of living. |
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Post by NightHunter on May 4, 2008 13:13:24 GMT -5
Ok, my comparision with lobster was not really a tough to beat one.  Still going with my first post, if you go in China and say to them that's bad what they do, they will think about what of you? If someone tell you it's bad to eat lobster because they are put alive in hot boiling water, what you will say to them, they don't feel pain?  I concur on one thing, some way of killing animal can be less cruel. But somes organisms is really a fundraising for another thing. BTW, I just saw a group on Facebook. fr.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14600870386&ref=nfInterresting; "I am a lawyer involved in the lawsuit against the government of Quebec for failure to enforce the Provincial Animal Welfare Legislation that is supposed to be protecting dogs from neglect." "This IS in effect somewhat of a fundraising effort since Court costs are beginning to skyrocket and the only way to continue this lawsuit is through fundraising." Issshhhh!!!! |
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