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Post by Aguila Saber on Sept 9, 2008 12:41:25 GMT -5
The Kai Monastery had Lore Halls of Solaris, Spirit, Light and Fire which were restricted to Kai masters who studied in them.
And yes, everything points to these Lorehalls still being in use at the time of the massacre.
Magnakai is mastery of 3 Kai Master disciplines, where as Kai Master requires mastership of all the basic Kai Discplines.
There were many Kai masters, but Kai who could call themselves Magnakai were much fewer, since you would reach that level only with several years of extra studies.
As for Grand Master very few Kai reached that rank, but it is as Beowuuf mentioned also the title for the leader of the Kai. I guess some Grand Masters acquired all the disciplines but I think 7-9 acquired Kai Master disciplines were a lot more common for the leader.
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Post by Simey on Sept 9, 2008 16:57:18 GMT -5
I don't think the First Order Kai had anyone beyond Master rank at the time of the massacre since the Book of the Magnakai was lost. I used to think that, but if you assume that the LWRPG has it correct then it was possible to learn the Magnakai disciplines without the Book of the Magnakai, presumably - as suggested above - by word of mouth, though if that was the case, why no one thought to write them down like Sun Eagle did is anybody's guess. My personal take would be that it was very possible for no one to have advanced beyond Kai Master since the loss of TBotM. Perhaps the Kai did quest for the book, but simply failed - it does turn out to be rather well hidden after all. Yes, Sun Eagle did achieve the Magnakai disciplines without the book, but if Lone Wolf can have been special enough to invent the Grand Master disciplines himself, could Sun Eagle not have been special enough to invent the Magnakai disciplines? The two of them are supposed to have been the two most gifted Kai in history, after all, and someone has to invent something before anyone can write about it. So I'd probably suggest that there were no Magnakai-trained Kai at the time of FftD, and that the rank of Grand Master being assigned to this Bright Blade chap is merely terminology for the head of the order, as Beo commented. If this is not the case then one needs to reason why none of the Maganakai-trained Kai wrote down the secrets of the Magnakai - were they all illiterate of something?
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Post by Samildanach on Sept 9, 2008 17:16:09 GMT -5
Some of the things people have said here simply never occurred to me. Here is my take:
The Kai had one Grandmaster, who headed the order. Below him were a relatively small number of Masters at various stages of the Magnakai training, each of them taught the Magnakai disciplines by Masters before them, and, in turn, teaching them to others who come after. Masters who have acquired the ten Kai disciplines are much more common than those who are learning the Magnakai disciplines, but even so, most students don't reach that level. Being a monastic order, Kai probably leave whenever they choose to. I'm inclined to think that many Kai go back to their homes (or wherever) before they gain all ten basic disciplines. Also, it's specified that some pre-Master Kai, the Warmarns, take up command positions in Sommerlund's army. The obvious reason for this would be to develop their military and leadership skills, but it's never stated that they only remain for a fixed period. I wouldn't be surprised if some Kai stay in the army. Furthermore, the partner rank to the Warmarn, the Journeyman, is sent all over Magnamund doing various tasks. This can't be a short job, and it's reasonable to assume that many Journeymen spend years at it.
All of the above being the case, you'd end up with people all over Sommerlund who've had a little Kai training - enough to make them more effective fighters/trackers/whatever - but who left the Order for one reason or another. Maybe they felt they couldn't learn any more. Maybe the lifestyle didn't suit them. Maybe they went there specifically to learn how to do something in particular, to prepare them for the future.
As for the Book of the Magnakai: as I said above, it never crossed my mind that the Masters did anything other than pass on the disciplines by teaching. Someone questioned why no-one else thought to write them down; maybe no-one else really knew how they worked. After generations of passing the skills on by word of mouth, there was bound to be some deterioration.
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Post by Bewildered Badger on Sept 9, 2008 17:28:09 GMT -5
The Book Of The Magnakai was lost, believed stolen, hundreds of years ago but it's wisdom was kept alive by the Kai Masters, handed down through generations of Sommerlending warriors so that they could share the strength to resist their eternal enemies - the Darklords of Helgedad. Section 200, Shadow On The Sand, MGP 2008.
This would seem to indicate that the Magnakai disciplines were available in the period following the loss of the Book, with each generation of Kai Grandmasters training the next.
As to why no one wrote down the secrets of the Kai, perhaps they did. The library at the Kai Monastery might have been full of learned tomes detailing the minutia of Weapon Mastery, the secrets of Invisibility, and so on. But the library, along with the rest of the Monastery, was destroyed. Any Magnakai secrets therein would have been lost.
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Post by Maerin on Sept 9, 2008 17:45:46 GMT -5
We also tend to take for granted, in our modern society, the idea of "writing stuff down". That is, to be quite honest, a fairly modern practice so far as mainstream society is concerned.
But even writing stuff down, and subsequently "re-copying" and otherwise replacing deteriorating volumes, is fraught with the potential for ever-increasing errors. There ARE documents in our own world that have managed to survive the centuries, but those documents are far less common and prevalent than one might appreciate (even "important" documents and records that people in our own world would have regarded with every bit the importance that Sommerlund would have regarded Kai practices).
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Post by Maerin on Sept 9, 2008 17:46:53 GMT -5
@ Maerin: Well, yeah. But imagine Bright Blade trying to explain himself to the other fallen heroes in the afterlife. Edit: I just realised I'm setting Sir Ector up for a "told you so" moment here. Maerin grins. No worries. My memory is not THAT good...
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Post by Maerin on Sept 9, 2008 17:49:05 GMT -5
Going by the gamebook mechanics, that's a lot easier to do than get killed by Giaks. Perhaps, perhaps not. Even by gamebook mechanics, it is quite possible for a character with a huge Combat Skill advantage to be killed if their reduced Endurance is less than, say, 10 or so. Sure, there is no question that it might take a LOT of giaks to manage that, but it remains quite plausible. Moreover, giaks are not quite THAT bad in combat. Putting aside the advantage of the Sommerswerd, and even a competent Kai like an experienced Lone Wolf is going to be challenged by sheer numbers, some fighting ability, AND a near-mindless willingness to ignore losses in order to bring a single opponent down. Maerin grins evilly. Now, on THIS point, Sir Ector might have to worry about ironic fates...
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Post by Simey on Sept 9, 2008 18:32:32 GMT -5
The Book Of The Magnakai was lost, believed stolen, hundreds of years ago but it's wisdom was kept alive by the Kai Masters, handed down through generations of Sommerlending warriors so that they could share the strength to resist their eternal enemies - the Darklords of Helgedad.Section 200, Shadow On The Sand, MGP 2008. This would seem to indicate that the Magnakai disciplines were available in the period following the loss of the Book, with each generation of Kai Grandmasters training the next. Ah, well then - assuming it also said that in the original then that settles that. Good point. Though the above quotation from Book 5 suggests the knowledge was handed down verbally. Perhaps there was no way that the later Kai Masters could truly communicate the Magnakai skills in writing. Or perhaps Sun Eagle just had a magic pen. ;D
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Post by Beowuuf on Sept 9, 2008 23:51:53 GMT -5
I have written down notes for the construction of many of our products at work. That is very good practise for nailing down the minutiae and small techniques that may be forgotten, and making sure the construction is consistent. However, for the broad strokes and intuitive tips, there is still no substitute for people new to a product being shown how to do things, and better yet working out better or more comfortable ways of doing things themselves.
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Post by Ghost Bear on Sept 10, 2008 5:31:12 GMT -5
I don't see why there should be such a small number of Kai Masters. As far as I've been able to find in canon, there's quite a few references to various Kai Masters - and these are only the ones that Lone Wolf has met.
Also, in Book 19, four Kai Masters are sent to aid Lone Wolf. Quite a few more are mentioned in Book 18. Of course, we can't necessarily say that just because the Second Order has a high number of Masters that the First Order did too, but I don't see why they wouldn't have. You could make a case for the Lorestones aiding a Kai's development, but from the Story So Far of the Grand Master and New Order books, it seems to me that the Lorestones weren't used on the path of the Magnakai.
-GB
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Post by eviltb on Sept 10, 2008 6:20:03 GMT -5
Been thinking about this one today.
Taking the date from when Sun Eagle founded the Kai Order (MS3810) to when it was destroyed in MS5050, that give us roughly 1200 years for the First Order. Sun Eagle was a Grand Master, not just in title, but in actuality. He knew all the Kai and Magnakai disciplines. That was his reward from the god Kai for starting the Kai order and retrieving the Lorestones. I would hate to think that he did not pass this knowledge onto those he taught. Why stop teaching them at Kai Master level? Ok so yes, maybe there were those who only learnt up to Master level and then went out to their homes or to serve in Holmgard or whatever, but there would have been a group of Grand Masters who knew the Magnakai disciplines without the need for the Lorestones. If there hadnt been more than 1 Grand Master, the Monastary would have fallen in the MS4219 assault by Zagarna. Skip to MS4434 and the Book of the Magnakai is lost. Magnakai teaching still continues but only by word of mouth. So this could account for there being less Grand Masters in MS5050. I still believe that Bright Blade was a proper Grand Master, not just in title. Maybe he was the only one, but he was still 4real Grand Master.
Now LoneWolf, he took on the Magnakai quest because he had no-one to teach him. He needed to get the Lorestones and the Book of the Magnakai. His reward for completing the gathering of the Lorestones, getting the Book and for defeating the Darklords and forming a Second Kai Order, was the gift of the Grand Master disciplines. Sun Eagle would not have had knowledge of anything beyond Grand Master, as the God Kai had not bestowed such knowledge on him. And, as we see, by the time LW is a Supreme Master, he has trained his own Grand Masters, one of which is again on his way to be the 2nd Supreme Master in the New Order books.
The Kai numbers in the Monastary are unknown in MS5050 (or I cant find them). And while the new text lists only Bright Blade as a Grand Master, maybe he was the only one at the time.
So to answer the Question, how many Kai become Magnakai.... It depends on what point of history you are looking at. Look at the creation of the Kai Order and I would say quite a few. Look at MS5050, and really you could only say 1.
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Post by Doomy on Sept 10, 2008 6:29:06 GMT -5
Am I the only one who's finding this a little confusing? For disambiguation purposes I suggest we refer to someone who has all the Magnakai Disciplines but no GM skills a Kai Grand Master or KGM, whereas a Grand Master or GM is someone who also has Grand Disciplines.
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Post by eviltb on Sept 10, 2008 7:40:19 GMT -5
Whats your reason for that?
Levels of Magnakai Training
The following table is a guide to the rank and titles that are achieved by Kai Masters at each stage of their training. As you successfully complete each adventure in the Lone Wolf Magnakai series, you will gain an additional Magnakai Discipline and progress towards the ultimate distinction of a Kai Warrior--Kai Grand Mastership.
1. Kai Master 2. Kai Master Senior 3. Kai Master Superior--You begin the Lone Wolf Magnakai adventures with this level of training. 4. Primate 5. Tutelary 6. Principalin 7. Mentora 8. Scion-kai 9. Archmaster 10. Kai Grand Master
So when all 10 Magnakai Disciplines are learned, they are a Grand Master. Whats the difference between a KGM and a GM?? Or am I now confused...?
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Post by Doomy on Sept 10, 2008 7:57:44 GMT -5
Levels of Kai Grand Mastery:
1. Kai Grand Master Senior 2. Kai Grand Master Superior 3. Kai Grand Sentinel 4. Kai Grand Defender--You begin the Lone Wolf Grand Master adventures at this level of Mastery 5. Kai Grand Guardian 6. Sun Knight 7. Sun Lord 8. Sun Thane 9. Grand Thane 10. Grand Crown 11. Sun Prince 12. Kai Supreme Master
So a KGM is one rank below a KGMS, but a GM could be any second-order Kai who has started learning Grand Disciplines.
This is confusing, yes.
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Post by Bewildered Badger on Sept 10, 2008 8:05:22 GMT -5
O.K., just to clarify, when I posed this question I was originally thinking of the First Order, especially (though not exclusively) at the time of the Massacre. And before we get any smart alec comments, I think we can all work out the numbers for after the attack. Of course, if anyone wants to offer their insights into the workings of the Second Order, I'm fine with that.
As Doomy and EvilTB have pointed out, nomenclature and titles can be a little confusing. Might I suggest the following, purely for the purposes of this discussion?
Those who have access only to the basic Kai Disciplines, irrespective of number, are to be referred to as Kai Lords. If distinction needs to be made, those with all ten basic disciplines, but no Magnakai abilities, are called Kai Masters. Those with at least one Magnakai ability are to be referred to as Magnakai Lords (again, I must emphasize that this is purely for our convenience and does not represent the books). Some one with all ten Magnakai Disciplines is a Grand Master.
Anyone possessing at least one Supreme Discipline can be called a Supreme Lord. Some one with all the Supreme Disciplines is a Supreme Grand Master.
As I say, not cannon, but it may make this discussion a little less perplexing!
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