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Post by Bewildered Badger on Sept 9, 2008 10:15:02 GMT -5
...For one day, when they have finally mastered the disciplines of the Kai, they will return to their homes equipped in mind and body to defend themselves and their kin against the threat of war from the Darklords of the west. From 'The Story So Far', Flight From The Dark, MGP 2007 version.
O.K. folks, it's one of my 'somethings been niggling me, so I thought I'd ask you guys your opinion' moments!
I'd always assumed that only a small proportion of the Kai go on to become Magnakai. Given the skill and ability shown by Lone Wolf when he becomes a Magnakai himself, it seems highly unlikely that, even with vast numerical superiority and the advantage of surprise, the forces of the Darklords could have wiped out the Kai if there were more than a handful of Magnakai. That, along with the quote above, always suggested to me that the majority of the Kai learn only the ten basic disciplines. Even without the advanced forms they would be, individually or together, a significant resource in Sommerlunds defence. Meanwhile, a select few, those who have shown special aptitude, receive advanced training.
As I say though this is all an assumption on my part. So I thought I'd throw it open and ask others for their views. Ladies and Gentlemen, the floor is yours!
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Post by Aguila Saber on Sept 9, 2008 10:52:03 GMT -5
Most or nearly all became Kai Masters.
However, the rank of Kai Master (or nearby) is the breaking point. At this point many left the Order due to various circumstances to assume other roles in Sommerlund.
Probably only returning to the Kai Monastery at Fehmarn and a few other events each year.
Only a few stayed on to further develop their Kai disciplines.
The New Order Kai has a much higher breaking point than this.
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Post by Doomy on Sept 9, 2008 10:54:25 GMT -5
First Order or Second Order? I don't think the First Order Kai had anyone beyond Master rank at the time of the massacre since the Book of the Magnakai was lost. As for the Second Order, Lone Wolf was able to train a handful of Grand Masters, who in turn trained others, so that obviously included progression through the Magnakai ranks.
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Post by eviltb on Sept 9, 2008 11:06:38 GMT -5
Wasnt the guy who died in the Monastary attack in the new FFtD a Grand Master? I would assume there would be some GMs and that MagnaKai did actually exist in the First Order. LW had to teach himself how to be a GM, so took a lot lot longer than normally (again thats an assumption). I liken the Second Order Kai the same way as the New Order Jedi, if you read that sorta thing. Much like Luke Skywalker did, LW encouraged more to stay on as Kai, and since there werent any Kai around then more would be willing to stay to start a new legacy. But then, I could be talking rubbish
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Post by Doomy on Sept 9, 2008 11:49:08 GMT -5
The presence of ... whatsisname? Bright Blade? in Mongoose FFTD is a little confusing, since it goes against the whole "Lone Wolf invents the GM Disciplines" thing that you get in Book 13's The Story So Far.
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Post by eviltb on Sept 9, 2008 11:52:51 GMT -5
Well...
Obv there was knowledge of the Magnakai Disciplines. So BrightBlade would have been a GrandMaster which at the time was the pinnacle a Kai could get to. Then after LW became the first GM of the New Order, he was rewarded by Kai wth the knowledge of further advance Disciplines.
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Post by Doomy on Sept 9, 2008 11:55:46 GMT -5
Bright Blade was obviously a bit rubbish, since he managed to get killed by Giaks.
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Post by Black Cat on Sept 9, 2008 12:00:56 GMT -5
Was he a GM? He is not a Magnakai Master?
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Post by Doomy on Sept 9, 2008 12:06:26 GMT -5
If EvilTB is correct, and I think he is, Bright Blade would have been a Kai Grand Master - meaning he had all Kai and Magnakai disciplines, but nothing beyond those as they had not yet been invented.
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Post by eviltb on Sept 9, 2008 12:15:26 GMT -5
The text lists him as "GrandMaster BrightBlade". Since JD wrote said text, I guess that means its canon.
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Post by Maerin on Sept 9, 2008 12:17:18 GMT -5
Well, to clear a couple things up. The loss of the Book of the Magnakai was never said to have cost the Order of the Kai access to the Magnakai Disciplines. That would be rather absurd, considering Sun Eagle allegedly wrote the book after completing the Magnakai quest in the first place. Moreover, the loss would have likely been presented as far, FAR more significant and crippling for the Kai, were it to have been that dramatic. At a minimum, one would presume it would have triggered another Magnakai quest to compensate (even without the Book, it is unlikely the Kai, over centuries, would have found NO way to initiate such a quest).
No, I think we can take what was said on the subject at face value. Without any other Kai Masters to instruct him in any aspect of the Magnakai, Lone Wolf was essentially "stuck" as a Kai Master. Unlike the example I mentioned previously, where the Order might have had centuries to find another way around the loss of the book, Lone Wolf would have had only his remaining lifetime. Since it is at least implied that Lone Wolf was not necessarily inclined as a teacher (even if one puts aside the more explicit references to that effect in the Legends series), it is quite plausible to conclude what the books concluded; that the Order would finally die away when Lone Wolf either was slain or died a natural death.
Finally, I would point out that there are ways Lone Wolf can die in even the Grandmaster books that are far more basic (and therefore "implausible") than being slain in battle by giaks. Bright Blade may or may not have been "rubbish" as the leader of the Kai in MS5050, but one can realistically assume that he was likely already tired and very likely to already have been wounded or otherwise impaired by previous fights. So the idea that even a Kai Grandmaster cannot be overwhelmed by sufficient numbers is demonstratably incorrect.
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Post by Beowuuf on Sept 9, 2008 12:22:37 GMT -5
We've had this discussion before - the captain of a ship is called the captain, even if he is of commander rank, etc
Similarly, I believe the Grandmaster of the monastery does not necessarily have to be a grandmaster. Also, the magnakai disciplines were passed along by word of mouth.
I agree, I do not imagine many would have stayed on forever at the monastery, mostly those dedicated such as teachers or powerful Kai. There is no canon description to say how many teachers etc there were - I believe the First order could field 500 warriors? How many of those were pupils at the monastery and teacher, and how many were those that went back home with the Kai Master skills I do not know
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Post by Doomy on Sept 9, 2008 12:26:27 GMT -5
@ Maerin: Well, yeah. But imagine Bright Blade trying to explain himself to the other fallen heroes in the afterlife.
Edit: I just realised I'm setting Sir Ector up for a "told you so" moment here.
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Post by eviltb on Sept 9, 2008 12:32:02 GMT -5
Maerins got a point there Doomster, LW dies a lot more easily than getting over-run by Giaks. Slipping down the Tahou cauldron and beaking his neck spring immediately to mind.
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Post by Doomy on Sept 9, 2008 12:37:15 GMT -5
Going by the gamebook mechanics, that's a lot easier to do than get killed by Giaks.
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