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Post by Aguila Saber on Jul 28, 2009 14:17:26 GMT -5
I find it much easier to read Legends if I think of them as something like 'Tales from Magnamund' rather than anything to do with Lone Wolf himself. After all, anyone looking for Lone Wolf-centric stories must surely be disappointed by Grant's reduction of him to a semi-competent thug. Does Grant write more science fiction than fantasy then? The only non-Legends book of his I've seen is Albion, and that's fantasy too. There is a second part of Albion called The World. Both of them features Alyss which is his creation. Some of the other characters in Legends also appear in cameos in these books, or perhaps the cameos is in the Legends of LW books, depending on perspecitve. Alyss is fairly late in Albion I believe. Another noteworthy creation of his is Thog. I think he liked that one. He actually used it as part of his E-mail and I know that I've read that character got an outside life from the books. It's now 10+ years ago since I read Albion and The World but I think Thog features shortly in one of them. JG's bring to life a lot of side-characters. These are the main thing for me to read the book. I already know about Lone Wolf and roughly what he will do. Side-characters are needed to give the Legends something new. OK. I read to much Lone Wolf. But when I read specifically about Lone Wolf I do not see the need to go to other writers than Joe Dever. There is a huge amount of info about Lone Wolf in the books. Not much that any other author could add.
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Post by Simey on Jul 30, 2009 16:40:28 GMT -5
considers his worst work, and constantly dismisses fantasy "because he thinsk sci fi is better". Okay, I have nooooooo intention of getting into an argument about this, because I fully understand that there are both lovers and haters - and no doubt in-betweeners - of the Legends, and that everyone has valid reasons for their position on them, but the above is simply not true. John Grant (Paul Barnett) considers The Birthplace and The Rotting Land especially to be amongst his best, most crucial works in his development of his fantasy ideas. The very early entries in the Legends series were fairly closely following Joe Dever's lead, so far as I can make out, so you wouldn't expect him to consider them his best stuff - I don't think he disregards them at all, but he didn't have as much creative freedom when writing them as he was allowed later on. The following ones - most probably 5 & 6 - he didn't like because the former just isn't terribly good and the latter was chopped to bits by the publisher. He has stated that indeed he very much did dimiss fantasy before he started working on the Legends, but that he quickly gained a very different perspective on what fantasy was capable of, and that it was his work on the Legends that led him to write his own independant fantasy works, Albion and The World. Does Grant write more science fiction than fantasy then? The only non-Legends book of his I've seen is Albion, and that's fantasy too. He considers sci-fi to be a sub-genre of fantasy, so his work doesn't tend to distinguish between the two in any definite way. Both Albion and at least the early part of The World have nominally 'fantasy' settings, but many of the ideas that develop in them - especially in The World - would be classed as sci-fi by most people, I'd've thought. Albion is quite good. Grant himself has reservations about the writing in it, and I would say that it does suffer similarly to the Legends in perhaps having a surfeit of strong female characters who aren't sufficiently distinguishable enough from one other. But he is an ideas man, and it certainly contains loads of fascinating ideas! And it does set up some characters that continue on into.... The World I must confess I've stalled in. I'm a very poor, slow reader, and several very good books have temporarily floored me, so I'm not suggesting anything bad about The World by saying this. It seems to be considered his best work - by himself and the fantasy establishment - and even as far as I've got, it's astonishing stuff. The ideas that you can see germinating in the Legends and growing in Albion really blossom in The World. Even taking into account my poor ability at reading, I would have to say that it is not an easy read - the concepts you're asked to take on board alongside the sometimes outlandish ways in which they are presented makes it quite simply hard going in places. But since the ideas in the first third are brilliant, I have little doubt that by the end they are jaw-dropping. I'm currently gearing up for another crack at it....I hope.
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koreth
Full Member
The Cener Druids Rule All. Accept It.
Posts: 172
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Post by koreth on Jul 30, 2009 20:45:29 GMT -5
Likewise, I hope to pick back up reading the Legends series. I left off at The Birthplace. The colors stick, you know.
I had a hard time getting past the repeats of colors sticking, but perhaps I'll dust the book off and pick up where I left that bookmark at.
Regards, Koreth
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Post by Samildanach on Jul 31, 2009 2:53:13 GMT -5
He has stated that indeed he very much did dimiss fantasy before he started working on the Legends, but that he quickly gained a very different perspective on what fantasy was capable of He considers sci-fi to be a sub-genre of fantasy, so his work doesn't tend to distinguish between the two in any definite way. Those points ring a bell now you've mentioned them. I think I must have read an interview or something.
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Post by Black Cat on Jul 31, 2009 12:21:10 GMT -5
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Post by Samildanach on Jul 31, 2009 18:18:49 GMT -5
Yes! That's the one!
It seemed to me that fantasy, as a literary form, was a dead end; all the good stuff had already been done by people like C.S. Lewis and George Macdonald and Alan Garner and Lewis Carroll and Mervyn Peake and Diana Wynne Jones and ... In short, I was a bit ignorant, and hadn't realized the possibilities within fantasy. I've since become a complete convert, to the point that I will argue at great length to anyone prepared to listen that fantasy is the single most important form of literature the human species has ever invented, and, as such, is one of the most important means of expression available to us.
Says it all, really. ;D
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Post by Simey on Jul 31, 2009 18:33:01 GMT -5
I had a hard time getting past the repeats of colors sticking, but perhaps I'll dust the book off and pick up where I left that bookmark at. Give it a go - it's not easy going that stuff, but worth it eventually, I reckon. And, of course, The Birthplace leads straight - very immediately, in fact - into The Book of the Magnakai, which is a rollicking adventure yarn.
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Post by Beowuuf on Aug 1, 2009 0:13:43 GMT -5
Just finished that, and rollick it does!
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Post by Samildanach on Aug 1, 2009 0:46:11 GMT -5
Mr Barnett makes a lot of excellent points about fantasy in general in that interview. There's one part that needs drilling into the heads of 90% of the fantasy writers on NaNoWriMo.
This part:
When Tolkien created the otherworld of Middle-Earth or Lewis the otherworld of Narnia – and, of course, Macdonald before them in his tales for grown-ups like Phantastes and Lilith – that was exciting, that was imaginative, that was fantasy, because they were genuinely exercising their imaginations to reify lands that had never existed. The vast bulk of their imitators – in reality, Tolkien's imitators, because I reckon many of them haven't read the other authors – aren't doing that. Instead, they're setting otherwise pretty mundane tales in a shared quasi-medieval otherworld that has become so familiar to us it might as well be Poughkeepsie or Bermondsey. If I came along to you and said that I'd written a novel that was fantasy because I'd set it in Poughkeepsie you'd look at me like I was a lunatic – well, even more of a lunatic than usual, anyway! – but that's in effect what a good many writers of generic "fantasy" are doing.
I know what they'd all say though, if they even bothered to hear the words. They'd say "but I am using my imagination, because my dwarfs are TALL!" or "my dragons don't like treasure!" or "my main character has never even seen a sword!" Grrr, I hate those people. I shouldn't have mentioned them; thinking about them has made me angry.
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Post by greywolf on Aug 3, 2009 6:18:31 GMT -5
Is this a good or a bad thing? Ive never read the Legends books, so I dont know wether to hang myself or jump for joy. Bad. Very bad. Especialy since there doesn't seem to be much of a Joe Dever/Mongoose link. Sounds more like a writer trying to get more money out of his old work than bringing back wonderful stories (wonderful stories that he didn't enjoy writing, considers his worst work, and constantly dismisses fantasy "because he thinsk sci fi is better"). John Grant's books were well written but he took the stories in some unpopular directions (and they barely seemed to feature Lone Wolf at times). Since I'm part of Dark Quests RPG and Book line I can tell you, whilst there's no direct Mongoose link, there's a direct link through me
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Post by Ghost Bear on Aug 3, 2009 7:53:11 GMT -5
Just finished that, and rollick it does! Indeed. That's what annoyed me about the Legends. It's clear that Grant can write good rollicking adventures, but there was too much of the weird, trippy fantasy stuff in a lot of them (The Birthplace being a prime example). I'm sure that that sort of stuff can be OK in a setting where they're not out of place, but they were very jarring in Magnamund. -GB
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Post by Beowuuf on Aug 3, 2009 12:24:53 GMT -5
I guess the problem is it's not in the gamebooks, so it feels alien. Still, in its own right it's ok I think
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Post by Simey on Aug 4, 2009 15:35:31 GMT -5
Since I'm part of Dark Quests RPG and Book line I can tell you, whilst there's no direct Mongoose link, there's a direct link through me You can't say something like that and then not elaborate (well, not without prompting stern glares anyway). Tell us more! I guess the problem is it's not in the gamebooks, so it feels alien. Still, in its own right it's ok I think Yeah, to fully run with the Legends you have to accept them as sort of being Magnamund PLUS, since there is undoubtedly a fair bit of material that springs directly from John Grant's imagination without being prompted by anything specific in Joe Dever's creation. Speaking personally, since the Legends won me over in the vast majority of respects, Magnamund to me is the fusion of Dever's and Grant's invention that is present in the novels. Understandably, those who favour the gamebooks over the novels will be less enamoured with all the extra stuff. But I think that it's very possible to enjoy them even as a member of this camp simply by taking them for what they are and disregarding that with which you disagree. Magnamund is a fantasy world after all, so it's a pretty sure bet that everyone has a slightly different version of it in their head anyway.
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Post by ikartaskai on Aug 5, 2009 13:37:45 GMT -5
Hi Koreth. I'm trying to send you an MP but I can't find the button for it. Can you contact me at david@latapie.name? Thanks.
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Post by Simey on Jan 14, 2010 10:04:40 GMT -5
Oh my word - I'd heard nothing on this for so long that I thought it may have fizzled out, but.... LOOK!Dunno if that makes anyone else quite as excited as it does me, but, BOY, is that exciting!
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