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Post by zipp on Jul 8, 2009 14:29:05 GMT -5
I know this has been discussed before, but it's been a while, so what were everyone's thoughts on the Fighting Fantasy style of book versus the LW style?
To quickly do a once-over of the differences, for FF we had a "one true path" style of writing which meant that you often had to play a book multiple times to complete it. It led to "explore everything" style gameplay, which worked best for dungeon crawls (I know at least all of the first ten books are dungeon based). Occasionally a bit of story would be thrown in, such as with Creature of Havoc, but this was rare beyond the usual "here's why you're here" bit.
In LW we had an ongoing storyline with a single character. The story was deep, there were reoccuring characters, and character creation was more involved. Not all was beer and skittles, though. While technically both FF and LW are ultimately linear books, LW has a tendency towards less replay value, because though many paths can take you to the end, usually there is only one or two major branches. Some books are better at this than others. The second book is infamous for being exceedingly linear, almost like an actual book, while Castle Death lets you potentially skip the entire dungeon very early on or end up in entirely new parts of the castle each time you play.
One of the reasons I bring it up is because of the DS revival of the FF series. Another reason is because I've now got several detailed drafts for gamebooks but have lost steam on all of them. I've realized this is mostly due to the linear story telling nature of them, and I'm thinking of trying a more FF inspired setting, with a new story for each book, that would let me actually write a decent sized series without getting bored with a character or theme. However, I'm not a big fan of the "one true path." I'm thinking of doing more of a classic "Choose Your Own Adventure" style, with multiple good and bad endings. Probably not as many as are in CYO, but still...
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Post by Doomy on Jul 8, 2009 14:31:38 GMT -5
What's gotten into everyone lately? Talking about gamebooks on the TotS? We have Project Aon for that. These boards are for irrelevant waffle.
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Post by Samildanach on Jul 8, 2009 16:08:51 GMT -5
This topic prompted me to refresh my memory of which FF books were early and which were late, and I discovered that many were reprinted a few years ago, and now appear in a completely different order! For instance, Creature of Havoc is now book 4, where before it was book 24! Anyway, overall I prefer Lone Wolf. I find the continuity of character adds depth, and the choice of skills not only gives more sense of control over your own fate, it also adds to replayability. When I go back to LW, there's an element of 'Hmm, I don't think I ever tried this book without Sixth Sense/Hunting/whatever.' Having said that, FF has its place. The discontinuity between books leads to a much wider range of settings and story types than is possible in LW, and sometimes there are very imaginative ways of playing with the FF system, such as in Sorcery or Crimson Tide. Where Lone Wolf is like a single epic roleplaying campaign, Fighting Fantasy is more like a succession of standalone games using the same system. After all, the system is the only thing most of them have in common. Which brings me to one of the weak points. I've always found the dice-rolling combat to be mildly annoying. Many gamebooks have an element of randomisation, but it plays a larger part in FF than in most. Furthermore, many of the books, unlike LW, don't allow you to weight combat in your favour; if you roll low CS in LW, you can try to compensate by picking up CS-boosting Disciplines, but if you roll low stats in FF, you're screwed. Some of the FF adventures are excellent. Some are downright bad. Overall, Lone Wolf wins for continuity, system, depth, and consistency. Then, of course, there are the various other gamebook series.
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Post by Beowuuf on Jul 8, 2009 16:40:18 GMT -5
I have a decent collection of books at home, bought a few in second hand shops (including four of the re-branded books) and agree with Sam in the three basic points. The discontinuity os good to have different types of adventures, the dice combat and being screwed with low rolls is annoying.
I must admit though the continuity of the sorcery series, or the continued nods to some of the settings (like the deathtrap dungeon echoes) are much more satisfying than the one-off adventures
While the interesting rules variants or gimicks made for some fun adventures, i think at their core (including creature of havoc, even though it had one of them ost gimmicky stories) the FF gamebooks mostly win when they have a logical progression of tasks and paths leading to the end, and you do feel yourself progressing when you figure out the correct paths. There is something satisfying about figuring out the city of thieves (or what was the similar 40odd numbered book that you explored a town, found a mongoose at one point, before carrying on) than about some of the more obscure 'here's your true path' books.
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Post by Samildanach on Jul 8, 2009 17:16:01 GMT -5
Yes, it's a shame that some of my favourite FF books (Prophecy, Tide, Citadel) left you royally shafted if you didn't pick up one specific item that can only be found along one of the several paths open to you, and even then only if you choose the right dialogue option. I have never, to this day, managed to find the item that lets me get past the ganjees in Citadel.
Prophecy is one of the worst for this, despite otherwise being a really good book. You have to fail a luck roll at the beginning, otherwise everything you do afterwards is futile. You also have to happen to find just the right combination of powers. I have finished the book, but it required some foreknowledge.
Similarly, another of my favourites, The Crimson Tide (the sequel to Prophecy, oddly enough), shafts you to the point that after literally fifteen years I still don't know how to finish it. It's like the Elder Scroll of FF - I've never seen another gamebook with such variety in the paths you can take and what you can choose to do with 'your' life. But that just makes it all the more difficult to find exactly the right combination.
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Post by Doomy on Jul 8, 2009 17:59:14 GMT -5
Some thoughts on replay value in gamebooks:
Take yer typical FF book - pretty much anything actually written by Jackson and/or Livingstone will do. Much (hopefully enjoyable) frustration arises as you unwittingly doom yourself to failure early on, but get no indication of where you've gone wrong, leaving trial and error as the only way to actually succeed. On first reading the book appears non-linear, but as you start identifying each step of the "one true path" your choices become less and less varied with each attempt, and eventually the puzzle is solved (dice permitting) and you're done with the book, time to get a new one.
Now take, say, Flight From the Dark - there's a multitude of different, viable ways to get from Section 1 to 350. I've completed it at least a dozen times over the years, yet when I summarized it section-by-section for Seventh Sense I found there were still things I hadn't done. On the other hand, the same freedom, and its corresponding lack of dead ends, means completing the book is a pretty trivial matter - my familiarity with it means I can run through it in about ten minutes.
Oddly enough, the first approach is therefore better-suited if you're designing a standalone gamebook, while the latter model is preferable if you're planning a series of continuing adventures and want to help it feel "fresh" on subsequent readings.
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Post by Samildanach on Jul 8, 2009 18:34:48 GMT -5
Good points. The FFs are, as you said, more like a puzzle than a journey or mission. It's not about completing an objective (as most Lone Wolf books are) but rather finding the right solution. And with few exceptions, what makes me go back to FF books is 'I never did manage to finish this one' rather than simply enjoying the experience.
LW is more forgiving in big confrontations, too. Take the fight with Haakon in Shadow on the Sand, for example. It plays out slightly differently depending on what you're carrying; if it was an FF book, though, you'd need to have something specific or die. Similarly, in Masters of Darkness, you can easily beat Gnaag if you have the Sommerswerd, but if you don't have it you can fight him. The objective is more important than finding a specific way of getting to it.
Conversely, the aforementioned Crimson Tide has an ending scene that's not all that difficult to reach, but completely impossible to survive if you don't have one tiny piece of information (or item, I forget what). If you have the thing, you win; if you don't have it, you die.
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Post by Beowuuf on Jul 8, 2009 18:42:27 GMT -5
The endings that you can reach but can be shafted over are a mixed bag. At least iof you die earlier, you slowly go through and figure everything out. For suc a good book, Black Vein Prophesy is horrible for letting you get so far then kikcing you at the last battle because of a luck roll you failed at the start!
I only found this power by going section by section through each book when I had exhausted every other possibility. thinking it a game error. Really, could a 'if you choose not to test you luck' choice have been so hard???
Others however, by hinting at an item you needed, at least make it fun to go through the dungeon again. That is the problem thouhg, the ones that let you go through to the end are forvcng you to play again and again, when usually he only reason to play these games again is the satisfaction of doing it all again right, or tweaking and optimising. Playing it all through again for the nth time just to be spanked again is not really fun! More like engaging some compulsive part of our brain that just can't let go.
Never did play crimson tide - it's it's a prohesy sequal, I really should...
I'm sure I got passed the ganjees in Citadel. It is one of the recovered books I bought, so can maybe flick through it to remind myself.
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Post by Samildanach on Jul 8, 2009 19:36:33 GMT -5
Playing it all through again for the nth time just to be spanked again is not really fun! More like engaging some compulsive part of our brain that just can't let go. Yeah... I basically just don't like to be defeated by an inanimate object, particularly one that cheats (which is how it feels sometimes). Never did play crimson tide - it's it's a prohesy sequal, I really should... It's not a direct sequel, in that the plot doesn't relate to the plot of Prophecy, but it does take place in Maior's Isles of the Dawn. The powers/skills and mechanics of the book are completely different to Prophecy as well, but it is similarly strange.
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Post by eviltb on Jul 9, 2009 2:44:13 GMT -5
Ive got about 40 FF books at home, ranging from worn to only slightly fingered, but my favourite series was always the Sorcery! books, written by Jackson. There was a mash-up if you will, of the above themes of "one true path" and continuing story/character development. You could, for example, play through the 2nd book relativley easy, but if you got the the end and didnt know certain information, you were screwed. Likewise with the 3rd book, you could either encounter a lot of what was chasing you, or you could not encounter them at all! Such was how you played affected the final book (Im not saying too much in case of spoilers). Still, if there was a choice I would say FF is good if you've got like a spare hour to just get a quick-fix of action in, LW is more for the long-term read.
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Post by wildhare on Jul 9, 2009 10:15:43 GMT -5
As a ten year old (and lets face it zipp this will be your target audience if you publish your books) I was never able to finish those stupid FF books, I did not have the patience to right down every path I took and play it over and over and over again just to find the right item or talk to the right guy. Patience and perseverance are in short supply for this generation of instant gratification. Were as with Lone Wolf I couldn't believe it when I actually finished it, the sense of accomplishment made me a fan for life. I guess that's what my point is, do you want something kids will remember for the rest of their lives (like us with lonewolf) or just a quick fix like the FF books whose titles I can barely remember 20 years later. If your worried about running out of ideas, I have always maintained that all of us fans would gladly have played a gamebook series of Banedon if one existed. Or even as a member of the Knights of the white mountain, i love those guys. It not about how cool the idea but how memorable the hero. If no one cares if he lives or dies, succeeds or fails, then you as a storyteller have missed the mark.
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Post by Doomy on Jul 9, 2009 10:41:25 GMT -5
I'm not convinced anyone could actually sell gamebooks to a commercial publisher. Mongoose haven't exactly delivered on promises to go into overdrive with their FFTD paperback, they're only selling to wrinkly, established fans via their site. Wizard are in bookstores with their FF reprints, but how many ten-year-olds are buying them?
Ever notice that the popularity of gamebooks peaked around the time of the biggest collapse the videogames industry has ever seen, and waned during the Sega and Nintendo boom?
Considering the current state of affairs, I think any book Zipp actually completes will have to be distributed on the internet or self-published in small runs. It won't make him a zillionaire, but he's free to write what he wants to, without concerning himself with demographics.
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Post by Swiftstrike on Jul 9, 2009 11:20:25 GMT -5
I enjoyed most of the FF books and still have a large number at home, but I do not ever remember trying to play them properly (except book 3) due to the huge amount of replaying involved I would often claim to have items I never actually encounter just to progress the storyline onwards, this would not stop me from reading the books again.
Also what was good was when they produced the background story books for the group roleplaying game they did a few books which neatly linked a lot of the lands and mythology in a way that really made it feel like a living continent which was really great to read and I did so over and over to get a feel for the lands of Titan.
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koreth
Full Member
The Cener Druids Rule All. Accept It.
Posts: 172
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Post by koreth on Jul 9, 2009 11:28:20 GMT -5
I'm thinking of trying a more FF inspired setting, with a new story for each book, that would let me actually write a decent sized series without getting bored with a character or theme. However, I'm not a big fan of the "one true path." I'm thinking of doing more of a classic "Choose Your Own Adventure" style, with multiple good and bad endings. Probably not as many as are in CYO, but still... I'm not a big fan of FF. I've got a boxful that I've not had the chance to read, but maybe some day in the next decade. Maybe. Of the gamebook projects you've got, could you simply evaluate them, and make "signficant substories" or side branches to add replay value? Think about if your character were in that situation, would you like more options and see where that leads you? Just a thought. Koreth
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Post by Beowuuf on Jul 9, 2009 13:00:30 GMT -5
I have a small envelope filled with carefully made maps of many of the games. I think the reverse of above - FF is an investment of time, while LW can be dipped in to yet the epic arc ensures that you are pushed to grab he next book at another time.
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