|
|
Post by zipp on Dec 15, 2008 15:22:44 GMT -5
A jump is a good way to reboot, but I still think unless some of the underlying organizational issues with the WW are addressed, it will not be a real fix, just a temporary diversion.
|
|
|
|
Post by Beowuuf on Dec 15, 2008 16:56:03 GMT -5
We never really used them in the end (shinies were more existing) but I updated the Lists of Honour for some of the newer contributions to the forums, and for some older accomplishments (forge items)
At the very least, it's a fitting mark to say 'woohoo' at all the people who contributed to these forums! If it helps with establishing some medals right away in the new forums, then all the better
|
|
|
|
Post by Ghost Bear on Dec 16, 2008 8:09:45 GMT -5
A jump is a good way to reboot, but I still think unless some of the underlying organizational issues with the WW are addressed, it will not be a real fix, just a temporary diversion. I don't think we're ever going to get a permanent fix. Not if we want to keep going and expanding the world. This is simply inevitable. Therefore I don't have a huge problem with a temporary fix. If we can sort out some of the organisational issues you mentioned, then the temporary fix could last a year or more, and that would suit me fine. I do have a few ideas on this, which I'll throw out there for discussion. 1. Moderate the West Watch more carefully. This includes stuff like permitted storylines (to grab two random examples - the attack on Toran and the Blood Plague storylines from the old WW would need to be more carefully controller in this system). Also we could moderate characters more. I think by the end of the old site, most people agreed that 'Your WW character is at your TotS posting level' was unwieldy and limitting. We could implement something like the ERPG, where you can only create characters up to a certain level. The existing 'higher level' characters could quite easily be relegated to NPCs. For example, Ghost Bear would still be Kai Lieutenant, but he wouldn't be played by me in the West Watch. Instead, I'd play a Warmarn called Tiny Rat (insert your own humourous Kai Name here). We could tie 'levelling up' in with our Chapters if we wanted. For instance, we could say that a character could optionally level up at the end of each Chapter. Anyway, enough on Moderation. 2. Make each Chapter more stand alone. This would mean that new players don't have to read reams of pages of back story. If this seems too limitting, we can group Chapters into 'Books' or something, with 3 Chapters to a Book and each Book being stand alone. 3. I'm aware that this might make the WW too similar to the ERPG - This is something I'd like to avoid. I think the ERPG would be an excellent addition to the new TotS. More thoughts as I come up with them. -GB |
|
|
|
Post by zipp on Dec 16, 2008 12:45:57 GMT -5
Stand alone would be difficult to do, though I like the idea. The problem is, the only way to TRULY do stand alone is to start new characters at the end of each chapter. But like I said, I like the idea. We should think more on it.
I still think having seperate threads for each major storyline is a fine idea that would increase readability and be easily moderated. It might seem too much like the ERPG, but why knock a system that worked? There's no shame in re-using something good.
Remember that the WW started out as a small thread being worked on by a small group of people. It was, in that form, never designed to handle the amount of story and contribution it eventually received. It's no wonder that it's so long overdue for an overhaul. It has since become something much more like the ERPG, so a similar system of moderation and implementation makes sense to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Beowuuf on Dec 16, 2008 13:56:12 GMT -5
It is good we are thinking about trying to get new members into the story as quickly as possible, but we need to work out how the west watch (not the forum aspects, the story aspects) actually work! Complex plots don't work, they create chaos and issues. Epic stories with many players can work well - but epic stories that can be boiled down to a simple few sentence summary, and storylines that have an obvious end, or obvious set of endings. Win the war. Find the traitor. Find the cure. Stop the disctator. Etc.
What any individual does in that backdrop, or in the aid of that, is fine. The early aspects of the WW that had many people are fine - the Battle of Toran, the rise of the NAK, they all actually boil down to not much backstory because the ended at definite points, with few unresolved hooks. The war was won, the darklords dangerous, the NAK are still around, a lorestone stolen.
The WW story summary I created seems big because 1) I am bad at editing my thouhts, and 2) I had to leave a few plot lines open to understand chapter 17 - Eshnar and Al's expedition essentially don't need the summary hooks anymore. If the blood plague is dormant now, it now becomes a single line in the state of Dessi, a single mention in the summary.
The West Watch story, if we close the chapter after BC/GB's helghast hunt and Beowuuf/Simey's helghast hunt, is actually quite clean. eviltb is poisoned to unleash Xog as the big chapter 18 story, a epic 'reboot' of the West Watch. Aguila Saber and Maerin's personal stories explain themselves, (the background for Maerin's actions only needs a brief explaination, that can be expanded in a check on the state of the stornlands). Sarra and Falling Phoenix's story is a simple epic story - again, a reference to FP's grand quest, and people can pick it up. I think Al has had to relief himself of carrying on his story, so it can be explained in as much detail as needed later when needed in the story.
In all those cases, no one really needs the backstory, they can follow along well enough as the current story flows on, and those stories do not affect the main west watch.
The Beowuuf story is complex (aside from bar Aguila Saber I think no one else has posted as much as me recently while being out of the main storylines) but part of that complexity disappears each time a 'chapter' dies. I think my chapter 17 'get up to speed' was complex sadly, as the story reached a finish with so many picked up plots, but Beowuuf's chapter 18 summary would be brutally easy. Beowuuf has finished an part of his story. Even Eshnar, in one and a half post's time, will be done. He then has a few small hooks to explain, easy to elaborate when needed, but is free for the next part of the story.
Anyway, I think the West Watch history is alot, but the actual plot threads open are not too bad. I think it is up to established authors to either be subtle about refering to the past, or be explanitory. If you re-introduce a character, as long as he is obviously evil then who needs to explain that histroy - that's just a nice texture for the diehards. If he is good pretending to be evil, then each chapter take the time to explain it as such?
I think instead of doing somethign drastic, we jsut need to be more disciplined (myself included), work out what discipline we need to keep the story on track and cohesive, and then put those rules down for new members to follow. I think anything else will just neccessitate reboots, while actually working out how the West Watch best operates in a narrative way will allow us to carry on well in to the future.
|
|
|
|
Post by zipp on Dec 16, 2008 18:29:32 GMT -5
I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but I think separate threads for separate stories is still the easiest answer.
I only keep mentioning it because every time I do, someone responds with a lengthy response which seems to suggest they don't like the idea, and yet the idea itself is never rebuked. I've yet to hear one good reason why we SHOULDN'T incorporate multiple threads into the WW. Maybe I'm just reading the responses wrong, though.
|
|
|
|
Post by Beowuuf on Dec 16, 2008 18:51:52 GMT -5
I still think following mutiple storylines with overlapping characters will be problematic, but i would be happy to be proved wrong. No one said if my idea of the west watch being stored and displayed differently so it could be customised was an idea that could be implemented?
|
|
|
|
Post by eviltb on Dec 16, 2008 18:54:00 GMT -5
Id agree with Zipp, having threads for seperate stories would make the whole WW easier to read. Taking Wuufs examples, you could have 3-4 threads for the stories he mentioned in the current chapter. I know when I started to join the WW I started in a "story of.." thread then eventually made it across to the main thread. Even then, the main line was HUGE and reading through from Ch 1 was very daunting and made it difficult to see how I could intigrate myself into the WW. Having multiple threads would make it easier for newer membs to choose where they want to join, without having to read through everything just to catch up.
|
|
|
|
Post by Maerin on Dec 16, 2008 19:27:57 GMT -5
I know I, for one, have said all I plan on saying on the subject.
|
|
|
|
Post by zipp on Dec 16, 2008 20:36:57 GMT -5
I know I, for one, have said all I plan on saying on the subject. "Thus spoke Maerin, before calmly placing his hands in his lap and closing his eyes to meditate." |
|
|
|
Post by Simey on Dec 18, 2008 6:56:25 GMT -5
I love stuff like this - all the cool ideas being thrown around!  I suppose we ought to try and see that something comes of them. The main things seem to be: a continuation of the current WW alongside a new WW-esque story better integrated into the new books and more palatable to new writers; multiple threads in anything WW-like in order to make the individual storylines easier to follow. The former sounds good, since there's no denying that the current WW is intimidating to newcomers. I think this intimidation is largely illusory, but I can't deny that I was as much affected by it as anyone else in that it took over six months for me to move from wanting to join in to actually doing so. Starting afresh is good - though, as has been suggested, it is something that will have to be repeated intervallically in order to avoid the same over-dauntingness rising again - and keeping the current WW going is good too, especially for the likes of me who after two and a half years have yet to come to the point!  I'm all for parallel universes if both story forums are to be played out in the same time period - after all, does not every LWRPG game ever played exist in a parallel universe to every other one set at the same time? The question of separate story threads is trickier. The good thing about having all the posts hurled rather confusingly together in one thread is that as a reader you come across everyone's posts, and I think this is important. I would suggest that the disadvantage to lots of individual threads would be that a reader might concentrate on one or two stories and never connect with the others. If all the posts are sat side-by-side then you happen upon things that you might not have been attracted to given only a story title or quick synopsis. The problems/advantages of both systems are probably linked to how the WW is read. If you are keeping up to date with it and reading every post as it comes then having all the posts in one thread is not a problem. However, if you fall behind - as I have frequently - then trying to make sense of everything that's going on and remember what's gone before can be difficult. The thought occurs that a way of organising it might be to have all the posts in one thread as per usual whilst a chapter is 'open', but have additional threads for each individual storyline that can have the relevant posts copied into them as a chapter 'closes' with a synopsis heading them up. That way, someone staying up to date needs only to read one thread, whilst someone who falls behind can take each individual story separately and has easy access to a story's synopses to remind himself of what has gone before. The drawback is, of course, caretaking. To ensure that all relevant posts make it into the individual threads when a chapter 'closes' would need someone with the time and inclination to copy them all across (if, indeed, such a thing can even be done on a forum). And caretaking/moderating/whatever-you-want-to-call-it is probably the most important aspect of a new WW-like forum. All the many good ideas in this thread really need an individual or coordinated team to implement initially and then keep an eye on thereafter, and - meaning absolutely no disrespect to BC, GB or Beo, for all of whom time is the problematic factor, I think - probably in a more intensive way than has been done in some time in the current WW. That's just my few thoughts anyway. Apologies if I've repeated things from earlier in the thread due to having jumped into the middle of it. |
|
|
|
Post by zipp on Dec 18, 2008 19:20:08 GMT -5
The main things seem to be: a continuation of the current WW alongside a new WW-esque story better integrated into the new books and more palatable to new writers; multiple threads in anything WW-like in order to make the individual storylines easier to follow. Well, not quite. For one thing, the two ideas are not by any means incompatible with each other. For another, my thought is not to have just a bunch of random threads with a couple posts in them, but actual sanctioned story threads, maybe a limited number each chapter, proposed by an author and then carried out by them. Anyone could write in these threads as long as it contributed to the storyline of that thread, but I would imagine only people who had written on the WW before could start new threads. So you'd have to participate in a chapter before you could start a thread of your own. The main problem I see with trying to maintain two WW threads is that one will eventually fall by the wayside. It's sort've like trying to have your cake and eat it. Especially if one of those threads already has a dedicated user base who is very attached to their characters. Keeping the old WW while trying to start a new one defeats the entire purpose of a reboot. Also keep in mind that we have a limited user base, and of that, only a small percentage find the time to keep up with the WW. Spreading that already thin percentage over TWO story threads seems like a bad idea. I don't see (a) how readers being forced to read everyone's posts is a good thing and (b) how individual threads will change reader behavior. In relation to (a), I think that the way we've been doing it ends up being just annoying and hard to browse, rather than encouraging to those who would want to read everything. As it stands, stories are interupted at odd times by completely non-related stories. Sometimes a story may go for pages just off of one writer, than that writer won't put a word down for months and the story gets buried. By the time it picks up again, you have to dig back through old posts to find where it had left off and get back into it. I actually think multiple threads ENCOURAGE more reading of the WW, as it makes it more accesible. In relation to (b), it's not like readers who want to read all the stories will be stopped by multiple threads (indeed, as said above, I think they'll be encouraged). At the same time, readers who don't want to read multiple stories don't do so under our current system. They just ignore posts by authors other than the one they are following. Sure, right now that's a pain in the ass because of all the mess and jumble, but most people don't see that mess and go "okay, I'll read EVERYONE'S posts, I guess." No, at worst, they give up reading altogether in frustration. In best case, they glimpse at a couple other authors, but if they actually want to try to pick up that new author's storyline, they have to go digging... and that's discouraging. So again, I think multiple threads, due to its organizational properties, makes for more reading and more appreciation of multiple authors. Also, it's easily maintainable. No care taking required, aside from the occasional update to the synopsis. |
|
|
|
Post by Simey on Dec 18, 2008 22:17:30 GMT -5
my thought is not to have just a bunch of random threads with a couple posts in them, but actual sanctioned story threads, maybe a limited number each chapter, proposed by an author and then carried out by them. Anyone could write in these threads as long as it contributed to the storyline of that thread, but I would imagine only people who had written on the WW before could start new threads. So you'd have to participate in a chapter before you could start a thread of your own. Ah, I misunderstood what you were suggesting would be the content of each thread. I was thinking of it just being like the current content of the WW, but broken down by individual stories. Instead, you're saying that each thread is started by a story introduction that acts as an invitation for people to join in with taking that story onwards? That sounds like a pretty neat idea. |
|
|
|
Post by Maerin on Dec 18, 2008 22:21:39 GMT -5
Keeping the old WW while trying to start a new one defeats the entire purpose of a reboot. Only if a reboot is the one among many options selected. |
|
|
|
Post by zipp on Dec 18, 2008 22:39:37 GMT -5
my thought is not to have just a bunch of random threads with a couple posts in them, but actual sanctioned story threads, maybe a limited number each chapter, proposed by an author and then carried out by them. Anyone could write in these threads as long as it contributed to the storyline of that thread, but I would imagine only people who had written on the WW before could start new threads. So you'd have to participate in a chapter before you could start a thread of your own. Ah, I misunderstood what you were suggesting would be the content of each thread. I was thinking of it just being like the current content of the WW, but broken down by individual stories. Instead, you're saying that each thread is started by a story introduction that acts as an invitation for people to join in with taking that story onwards? That sounds like a pretty neat idea. Exactly. I'm thinking of each thread as a full story contributed to by many authors. Some examples from our past... The Blood Plague would've been one thread. Everyone who was writing about that story (me, Purple Turtle, Slavemaster) would've posted in that thread. Al's building a bridge across the Maakengorge would've been one thread. Eshnar would've all been one thread. |
|
