|
|
Post by Aguila Saber on Dec 11, 2008 16:57:29 GMT -5
The mention of sites not survived is not true. You linked to a couple of sites from the 90s and they are still there.
More accuate is to say that they are not being worked on any more.
My own site would probably qualify there too, it is from the 90s and still sees 1 or maybe 2 updates per year, but that's about it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Black Cat on Dec 11, 2008 17:04:13 GMT -5
The mention of sites not survived is not true. You linked to a couple of sites from the 90s and they are still there. A website that is not worked on anymore is a dead site for me. To be alive, a website needs to see some sort of update regularly (even if it is only a post on its forum). Your site is alive because, like you say, there's one or two updates a year. That's not much, but it still means that someone is taking care of it. Without a person to take care of it, a website is condemned. |
|
|
|
Post by Doomy on Dec 11, 2008 17:41:50 GMT -5
Some excellent thoughts there, BC, which deserve further exploration. However, I feel I must disagree with you here: -The old TotS website was good with all the RPG elements on and of the forums: ranks, badges, cash, inventory, medals, etc. Other websites have the same features (i.e. this forum for a website dedicated to the Legend of Zelda: rupees, gifts, ribbons... If we are to make another forum, it should be like the old one we had. I think that forum has way too much clutter. Most of the posts are single lines, with huge amounts of wasted screen space making it a chore to read. I'm all for the new site having these features, but do we need to see them in every single post? I think Blood Bowl fansite FUMBBL has a better design - while each member's account has a vast amount of information attached to it, the forum remains streamlined because that information is kept on personal pages which are distinct from their forum identity but can be accessed via a simple search. |
|
|
|
Post by zipp on Dec 12, 2008 4:41:38 GMT -5
I agree with everything BC said. I also think the WW should carry over, as it is a drawing feature, but I do think it needs some sort of reboot, or at least an entirely new saga that is easy for new members to get into.
|
|
|
|
Post by eviltb on Dec 12, 2008 5:34:52 GMT -5
I agree with everything BC said. I also think the WW should carry over, as it is a drawing feature, but I do think it needs some sort of reboot, or at least an entirely new saga that is easy for new members to get into. Trying to get there with that one. If you read my last post, hopefully Eshnar will end and something else will start. Something big. But anway, thats off the main point of this thread. You have some good ideas there BC, have you checked out the fb threads and put your ideas on there? |
|
|
|
Post by Maerin on Dec 12, 2008 11:36:54 GMT -5
Trying to get there with that one. If you read my last post, hopefully Eshnar will end and something else will start. The goal Zipp seemed to refer to reflects more of a true restart, than merely another "tack-on". The setting of the current West Watch is pretty far afield of any "take" on Magnamund that any newcomer would be familiar with. Moreover, the current West Watch setting is pretty cluttered with characters of players who are not even present anymore (and may or may not be present in the future). My own experience is that everyone is loathe to retcon or otherwise displace those players and that is understandable. But it certain makes the West Watch less attractive to newcomers who have no value attachment to what those old players have done and may, or more likely may not, do again. Obviously, one possible approach to dealing with this, as a courtesy to the small handful of people who are still interested in the current West Watch version of Magnamund, would be to have two or more such stories concurrent. There are many interesting time periods in Magnamund history to choose from and develop. And then, newcomers might pick and choose a bit from a number of different storytelling options. |
|
|
|
Post by Maerin on Dec 12, 2008 11:41:32 GMT -5
You have some good ideas there BC, have you checked out the fb threads and put your ideas on there? Black Cat may or may not find that counterproductive.  |
|
|
|
Post by Black Cat on Dec 12, 2008 12:50:10 GMT -5
Doomy: Oh, I didn't talk about how the RPG elements could be displayed or not with every single post. What I meant is that it should be kept in some way. I agree with everything BC said. I also think the WW should carry over, as it is a drawing feature, but I do think it needs some sort of reboot, or at least an entirely new saga that is easy for new members to get into. That is something that I've been thinking too. Although I don't want a complete reboot of the story, I have an idea that I think will make us all happy and allow new fans to join the story. EDIT: If there're some of you people wondering where in Facebook the discussion about rebuilding TotS is, check this link: www.facebook.com/board.php?uid=3308100250#/board.php?uid=3308100250
|
|
|
|
Post by Beowuuf on Dec 12, 2008 13:22:05 GMT -5
I agree with everything BC said. I also think the WW should carry over, as it is a drawing feature, but I do think it needs some sort of reboot, or at least an entirely new saga that is easy for new members to get into. The setting of the current West Watch is pretty far afield of any "take" on Magnamund that any newcomer would be familiar with. Moreover, the current West Watch setting is pretty cluttered with characters of players who are not even present anymore (and may or may not be present in the future). My own experience is that everyone is loathe to retcon or otherwise displace those players and that is understandable. But it certain makes the West Watch less attractive to newcomers who have no value attachment to what those old players have done and may, or more likely may not, do again. Obviously, one possible approach to dealing with this, as a courtesy to the small handful of people who are still interested in the current West Watch version of Magnamund, would be to have two or more such stories concurrent. There are many interesting time periods in Magnamund history to choose from and develop. And then, newcomers might pick and choose a bit from a number of different storytelling options. I have defended the West Watch in the past from alteration, reboots and starting afresh. However, something Zipp said recently made me change my mind (ish). Maerin has basically said my thoughts before I've had the chance to get them clear in my mind and form them. Basically, the 'world' of Lone Wolf community wise has changed alot in the last few years. We have gone from a series of old gamebooks, much loved, that were ended but that people only slowly discovered through PA to a set of actual books, stories contiuing, and offical new novels. The safe West Watch storyline where we got to play is, as Maerin says, far to removed from where any new memberes would want to be. Where is Lone Wolf, Banedon, etc? Where are the events of the novels to expand upon and that world? I think the West Watch as it is now is a great sandbox for those new players looking to really make a mark on magnamund, and for the regular community members, to play in. I think it should remain, but sidelined. I think there is no problem with the forum and its characters still existing in this world in a nebulous way - I would hate to lose the NAK for a start, who seem canonical even though they really aren't! Not to mention the Magnamund Knights' Council. The forum can exist in some alternate reality, jsut as the West Watch really does now. However, I think for new members to feel that TotS is part of the Lone Wolf world, something closer to the books and the novels should be encouraged as the main output of creative writings. The 'we need a reboot for new members' argument I always think is flawed - especially with some of the creative minds around, only the first few new members will be able to get itno any storyline before it gets convoluted again - and many new members would love to be allowed to play in their own way, not be forced in to an arcing storyline that isn't connected to canon. I think the West Watch is for those slightly weirder or more creative, and in that case those sort of people might be happy to get their legs in the safer cannonically led creative section, then dive into our murky world. The West Watch, if you ignore backstories, is actually pretty understandable right now. Anyway, that is a digression, I just wanted to say I love the West Watch, but feel that it should be allowed to stay in divergence while a new story with canonical feel may well be required - one where people can stay lowly ranked, even if in the WW and the forums they are uber-powerful Kai Lords and Darklords and murderous anti-Kai  |
|
|
|
Post by Maerin on Dec 12, 2008 13:31:50 GMT -5
Just to respond to one point that Beowuuf makes. If the NAK or the Magnamund Knights' Council were appropriate to a given new storyline and story setting, than it might be appropriate to introduce the idea into that new storyline. If not appropriate, then merely justifying its introduction as having been "validated" by its success in another storyline like West Watch would prove as toxic a justification as one ever finds in any bad cross-over we see published. The creative courtesy of the compromise I mention goes both ways: West Watch would remain in order to sustain that which works in West Watch, and something new will build its own merits without being burdened by the baggage of the "elder" story and setting.
|
|
|
|
Post by Beowuuf on Dec 12, 2008 13:56:04 GMT -5
Sorry, I probably wasn't clear or I am not understanding you. The NAK and the Magnamund Knights' Council are fantastic thigns that have occured from TotS, and a great part of the forum - I would hate to see them go. However, they aren't canonical and couldn't be supported as such.
Therefore, if we still have characteristation in the forums, then this 'characteristation' would exist in the same alternate dimension as the West Watch.
This might aid one of the problems in the past - our forum characters should not instantly be our story characters of we join the creative storyline. Events in the fourm should not instantly become events in the creative story. Inventive ways to combine them always happen, but I see no difference in incorporating our characters as 'clean' canonical characters to a truer storyline , as opposed to characters who become out avatars and have little resemblance to the West Watch storyline.
We could completely refresh the forum, where we have true characters that tie to the 'real' Lone Wolf and so on, but the divergence from canonical storylines, and creative storylines, would happen again anyway. Infact, this is exactly what happened with the original TotS anyway. We may as well have it from the beginning, and keep the character of the forum the same as was previously loved, while having outputs such as the LW RPG, LWERPG, and whatever creative 'West Watch' substitue allowing new members to play, while their alternative universe alter-egos get to have a freer time at play in the forum.
|
|
|
|
Post by Black Cat on Dec 12, 2008 14:10:18 GMT -5
Like I said, I have an idea for the WW that I think will make everybody happy. I just need to know what GB thinks about it before I present it to you.
|
|
|
|
Post by Maerin on Dec 12, 2008 17:59:49 GMT -5
I do not think there was any misunderstanding, Beowuuf, so long as you were not confusing what I was saying specifically about the storytelling project(s) like West Watch with one (other than me) might say about the essentially out-of-character social circles that can exist in an online community (which I have a fatalistically neutral view of, overall, since they far more often tend to benefit the few over the many; sorry if that offends some, but reality hurts).
However, the topic does as much apply to other aspects of new sites (emphasis on the plural) as it might one or more storyline forum topics (West Watch as well as any others). However, it is the latter I am focused on.
It is almost always the case that whenever someone talks of doing something new, every one in conversation agrees in almost all ways....except perhaps that one little piece that that person happens to be attached to... "Oh, could we not just 'port over this one little piece of what I liked from over there? It's not that big a deal, and it did work over there..."
The problem is, virtually everyone has at least one of those little pieces, and no one's individual piece inherently takes precedence over someone elses. I have seen this happen in RPG design teams before too (a few long-time RPG groups too). They sit down with the goal to set out and make something new, and then the process starts picking up all the little pieces of "what worked before". Usually the matter gets justified by some statement like "oh, we don't want to hurt so-and-so feelings and/or creative efforts". Before very long, they not only do not have something fresh and new, they have something so overburdened with what had been created before that it is as opaque to newcomers as the old was before it (which means all the efforts just went to waste to no significant outcome).
In the interests of clarity, let me offer an example.
Consider the NAK. Now, I am not poking on the creativity that was demonstrated in the details, but based on what I have read of what is available to read as, say, a newcomer to this community might, the overall concept lacks originality in my point of view. Instead of creating a evil "champion group" to rival the Kai but still hold onto a unique nature, one that has unique origins, backstory and abilities, one instead finds a fairly linear and mundane bastardization of what the Kai are and can do. The RPG is probably at least partially to blame for that, with its heavily-unbalanced Kai class. But there is an overall lack of general concept and story development that allows the NAK to stand on the same footing as the Kai in the setting and that makes the NAK concept, at best, a lack-luster rival whose best elements are nothing more than a copy.
That is my general view of the NAK concept. However, my specific views of the NAK is that certain specific individuals have taken what was not a very original story and setting element and made it something special in the form of their specific characters. And they took that special contribution and funnelled it back into shaping the idea of the NAK into something that really worked with the setting and story. Unfortunately, those same people have not taken it far enough back to rework the more general concept into something satisfactory; and I guess that is probably because those people worry about the "feelings" of the original creators. That is what really gives a new idea substance, and substance that means something to more than just one or two people. That is what earns a new idea the validation to exist in multiple parallel stories.
|
|
|
|
Post by Beowuuf on Dec 12, 2008 18:33:02 GMT -5
There are even more fundamental reasons the NAk could not be ported over to a 'clean' story - if I recall correctly, JD said there would be no parallel evil Kai.
Similarly, something as cool as the MKC could not port over to a clean site either, because in none of the novels will this be mentioned nor focused on.
I guess a decision needs to be made on whether elements such as this are not carried on at all, if the forum remains divorced from any RPG / creative writings (and hence institutions and classes can exist that aren't canonical, and are merely fun representations of the forum itself) or if TotS remains the same.
I fear if the last one, then we will remain an insular community that, in the new sets of canonical works, will not satisfy any new fans.
|
|
|
|
Post by Maerin on Dec 12, 2008 21:55:13 GMT -5
Maerin shrugs. I do not think anyone here is necessarily thinking in terms of "canonity" (as has been said before, there are various other sources that deal with that), so I do not think that will matter. Any idea, old or new, will earn its place based on its own merits.
|
|
