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Post by Maerin on Oct 6, 2008 20:58:20 GMT -5
Also, the Book of the Magnakai isn't 'official. I am making no value judgments on the source. I am only pointing it out as one of the very few test sources that quantitatively cites a particular "level rank" for a Kai Master holding the rank/position of Kai Grandmaster.
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Post by Ghost Bear on Oct 7, 2008 2:53:16 GMT -5
I've not actually read the book in question myself Maerin, so I fully admit I might be totally wrong. Maybe I should have used 'have heard from second hand sources' rather than 'reasonably sure'? I still consider Legends canon if not contradicted by the gamebooks (which are further superceded by the rereleases). So the new GM in the gamebooks makes the point moot anyway. -GB
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Post by Al on Oct 7, 2008 6:46:34 GMT -5
I am fairly confidant I saw it in a LW newsletter, but not sure which one
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Post by Maerin on Oct 7, 2008 11:05:25 GMT -5
Maerin chuckles. I know folks mean well, but in any sort of canon context if one cannot actually accurately cite a source it become just this side of impossible to have a meaningful canon discussion. ;D I am as fond of a speculative discussion in the absence of facts as the next guy, but I do prefer to keep the two very exclusive types of discussions seperate. There are a few too many people on online forums in my experience who do not recognize the need.
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Post by Beowuuf on Oct 7, 2008 12:49:58 GMT -5
It is a newsletter, as i recall the same comment too
However, i don;t remmeber it from the magnamund companion appendix round-up, so it might be buried in a more obscure answer session (like the dead darklord reference of early LW newsletter fame)
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Post by Aguila Saber on Oct 7, 2008 15:26:36 GMT -5
I am fairly confidant I saw it in a LW newsletter, but not sure which one This one? Before their massacre, how long did it take ai Lord to master each basic and Magnakai Disciplines? Lone Wolf Club Newsletter 9: There was no set time limit in which a Kai Lord had to master any Discipline. Each of the Kai developed their innate skills at different rates of progress. Some Kai never progressed higher than the rank of Warmarn (Journeyman) or Guardian, whilst others, having entered the monastery as children aged seven, developed their skills very quickly and attained these ranks before they were 12 or 13 years old. Assuming that a Kai Lord had the innate potential of developing his skills to the rank of Kai Grand Master, then the average progression through the ranks (compared to age) would have been:
RANK AGE NOVICE 7 INTUITE 9 DOAN 12 ACOLYTE 14 INITIATE 16 ASPIRANT 18 GUARDIAN 19/20 WARMARN/JOURNEYMAN 20/22 SAVANT 24 KAI MASTER 28 KAI MASTER SENIOR 30 KAI MASTER SUPERIOR 32 PRIMATE 35 TUTELARY 38 PRINCIPALIN 42 MENTORA 48 SCION-KAI 50 ARCHMASTER 52/54 KAI GRAND MASTER 56/60
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Post by Beowuuf on Oct 7, 2008 16:01:35 GMT -5
no, something else where the question about the highest rank before the massacre
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Post by wildhorse on Oct 8, 2008 9:37:02 GMT -5
Regarding the Legends, who held the highest rank of the Kai Lords prior to the massacre? Ok, the Legends may not be the most canon of all sources, but let's see what ideas it throws up.
My reading did bring up the following points...
1) Eclipse of the Kai (EOTK), page 167-168 ...They came in their many-coloured costumes from all over the land of Sommerlund. Those in grey were the Kai Master, fearsome warriors, yet among the most junior of the Kai. Those who had progressed a little further, were in light or dark blue. Higher ranks were indicated by green (a colour shared with the initiates), scarlet, orange, yellow, white, silver and finally, for the Kai Grand Master, gold...
2) The following excerpt is for Storm Hawk (Page 35):
...The old man was dressed in his full fighting costume, a green helmet with a bright gold emblem of an oak tree upon it, a robe of red velvet, a green cotton tunic hemmed with gold filigree, a sturdy jacket of overlapping scales of leather and boots made from untreated animal hides. He was carrying his battleshield and his sword was in his belt...
3) This excerpt can be said to be the thoughts of an acolyte (Page 167):
...and the woman climbing down from the black stallion: she looks less than eighty than seventeen, but she is dressed in the silver, so I guess she, too, must be an Archmaster. I am not sure I like the way it is cut so short but its a funny kind of red and her face is well, all right, it's pretty.
Next bit: Page 180
She ran up the stairs, two at a time, to the Lore Hall of Fire and then through it to the Lore Hall of Light. Beyond was the Lore Hall of the Spirit and another flight of stairs, shemounted these with circumspection for the more devout of the Kai Masters, were praying in the Kai Master's Hall. She was prepared to adopt invisibility instantly, should the need arise but it didn't. She scrurried past th hall's doorway and up more stairs to the Kai Master's Chambers. These were empty, as were the Grand Master's Chambers on the next floor up; Winter Owl was praying in the Kai Master's Hall.
From these three excerpts:
We may perhaps glean the facts that:
1) There isn't really anyone who is qualified enough to have all the ten Magnakai Disciplines, although there seem to be a certain number of Archmasters such that the acolytes don't seem surprised that much.
2) Hence in the absence of a "10-Magnakai Discipline" Kai Grand Master, it falls to the next best or senior Kai to lead the Monastery, like what Beowuuf said earlier: the captain of a ship does not always hold captain rank.
3) Hence I suspect (and this is only my opinion), in the Legends, the Order of the Kai, chose the most senior person around to hold the position of Kai Grand Master "in an acting capacity".
The above passages will have pointed us to the fact that Storm Hawk held the rank of Primate, and he could have been the acting Grand Master of the Kai, and was succeeded by Winter Owl.
Or the other possibility which I seem to understand, throughout the book, is that the leadership of the Kai Order seemed to be run by a group of tutors (something like a council of elders) of which Storm Hawk was the most senior.
So maybe in modern contemporary terms, we are talking about something like Hogwarts where you have all the House Teachers, but there isn't any Headmaster Dumbledore.
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Post by Maerin on Oct 8, 2008 11:15:46 GMT -5
The problem with the above analysis is it still relies upon that presently-unsupported (and apparently unsupportable) assumption: that there is no Grandmaster of the Order in MS5050 because none is explicitly mentioned (at least until the revised Flight From the Dark). Nothing in the passages you provide specifically supports that assumption and, indeed, if one takes the implications of reference in the above passages, very little actually even could support the assumption.
That is an inherently flawed arguement for reasons alread discussed, the most noteworthy of those remains that what and who appears in any novel or other story has more to do with that element's connection to the story the author wants to tell than any other (indeed, usually every other) empirical/informational reasons. We did not see a Grandmaster in the original Flight From the Dark not because there was not one, but because Lone Wolf did not encounter him in the story (all the Kai except Lone Wolf were dead from the beginning). We did not see a Grandmaster in Eclipse of the Kai because, again, none of the main characters of the novel encountered him/her and he/she was not mentioned in any of the more informational parts of the novel (plenty of else was not mentioned either, but that is insufficient to assume non-existance on the basis alone of the lack).
We suddenly now see a Grandmaster of the Order appear in the revised version of Flight From the Dark, but only because Lone Wolf encounters him during the Monastery battle. And, so far as I am aware, the revised gamebook offers no evidence supporting the idea that this Grandmaster was somehow "not" a Grandmaster in the Magnakai sense of the title (there is no evidence one way or the other, making the topic speculative and the inference that he is "not" a Grandmaster is the inherently weaker one given what is actually stated).
Storm Hawk's role in the novel, as well as Winter Owl's after Storm Hawk's death, is pretty clearly spelled out already: Storm Hawk is one of Lone Wolf's Masters and a Master that takes a keen interest in the young Kai (the term used in the novel is "tutor"), and Winter Owl is Storm Hawk's successor (including taking over the older Kai's study). There is no evidence to suggest that either have more significant leadership responsibilities in the Kai Order. Indeed, quite the opposite is suggested by Storm Hawk's ability to leave the Monastery for a few days with a single Kai youth to go scouting, and not have any significant reaction to his death occur when Silent Wolf returns. If one accepted the speculation that Storm Hawk in any way lead or was a significant leader in the Order, his death is not even mentioned as a discussion point among all the Kai arriving for the Feast of Fehmarn soon after (which makes little sense, even speculatively).
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Post by Ghost Bear on Oct 9, 2008 8:33:21 GMT -5
Going back on what I said earlier, after having a bit of a think.
It seems quite unlikely that there weren't people of Grand Master(10 skill Magnakai) rank. After all, assuming all skills are available to be learnt (a perfectly reasonable assumption), then someone would most likely have learned them all in the centuries of existence of the Order.
Furthermore, if Sun Eagle discovered the Magnakai Disciplines (as has been stated in canon), it seems likely that he was a 10 skill Grand Master.
For whatever reason, he (and his successors) didn't discover the 'next step' to the Grand Master Disciplines - we can only guess what this next step is.
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Post by Maerin on Oct 9, 2008 11:43:36 GMT -5
For whatever reason, he (and his successors) didn't discover the 'next step' to the Grand Master Disciplines - we can only guess what this next step is. Maerin nods. To take this particular topic into the speculative, the only apparent difference between Sun Eagle (as well as all subsequent Grand Masters that may have existed pre-MS5050) and Lone Wolf seems to be the presence, together, of the Lorestones and their retention by Lone Wolf after the end of the Magnakai quest. I say apparent difference because, of course, there is little enough definitive that the Lorestones made any difference at all, save for the reference to Lone Wolf studying the Grand Master Disciplines in the light of the Lorestones ("Story So Far", The Plague Lords of Ruel) and the implications one might draw from that. It is interesting that, in the process of the Magnakai quest, Lone Wolf seemed to absorb some significant essence of the Lorestones into himself, rendering them relatively featureless crystalline stones. And yet, once Lone Wolf was a Grand Master, they seem to once again regain radiance and visible signs of what they were before Lone Wolf's discovery of each. Of course, the above supposition does invite the question of why Sun Eagle did not retain the Lorestones during his own quest, and therefore himself discover the potential for the Grand Master Disciplines. No subsequent Grand Masters apparently had access to any of the Lorestones so, if they are the key to unlocking that potential, it does stand to reason that those subsequent Grand Masters would have never made the discovery. But what about Sun Eagle? My guess as to the explanation is derived based on what appeared to happen to the Lorestones when they were discovered by Lone Wolf: that they seemed to lose the visible signs of power and significance as that was absorbed into Lone Wolf. Though not made clear in the Magnakai series, it is clear from Book 13 that Lone Wolf still retained the Lorestones even after seeing that. Why he chose to do that, we do not know. It is equally suggestive from the evidence that each Lorestone was essentially left behind by Sun Eagle roughly where he found each. One can conclude from that evidence that Sun Eagle, whether guided as such by others or acting on his own judgement or intuitions about the distant future, chose to leave each Lorestone behind rather then take them with him. Therefore, the Lorestones were never brought together or retained together by Sun Eagle, and Sun Eagle never saw them (except, perhaps, the last one he found) restored to their radiance and power after he completed the Magnakai quest as Lone Wolf apparently did. If the Lorestones gathered together form the key to unlocking the potential of Grand Master Disciplines, it can be thus explained in theory why Sun Eagle never managed to do so, but Lone Wolf did.
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Post by Aguila Saber on Oct 9, 2008 12:15:26 GMT -5
Of course, the above supposition does invite the question of why Sun Eagle did not retain the Lorestones during his own quest, and therefore himself discover the potential for the Grand Master Disciplines. The Elder Magi probably advised him not to. The prophecy, which if it really is a prophecy has to predate Sun Eagle's coming, told them there were going to be two. They probably told Sun Eagle this as well. I don't think one life-time was enough to grant one person that form of advancement. Sun Eagle realized this and created the Book of the Magnakai so there was something to build on for his successor. There is also the very likely factor that the knowledge of improved disciplines is a result of gifts from the God Kai when completing a major quest or goal.
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Post by Maerin on Oct 9, 2008 14:34:08 GMT -5
The Elder Magi probably advised him not to. The prophecy, which if it really is a prophecy has to predate Sun Eagle's coming, told them there were going to be two. They probably told Sun Eagle this as well. Indeed, when I mentioned "others" guiding/advising Sun Eagle in my previous post, I did have the Elder Magi in mind as the ones most likely to have done so if anyone did so at all.
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