How many Kai become Magnakai?

[Doomy]

Come to think of it, doesn't the list I just posted only really apply to Lone Wolf himself, since more Disciplines (and thus ranks) were added after Book 20? Could someone post the one that appeared in the New Order series?

[eviltb]

I believe the Ranks stayed the same ie no new ranks where added. You just started later in the Series as a GM Superior (I think).

At work so dont have my books to check.

[Samildanach]

I can't be sure offhand, but I seem to remember that a Supreme Master still requires the same number of Disciplines as when Lone Wolf did it, meaning that a New Order Supreme Master doesn't need to have mastered all the Disciplines to hold the ultimate title. I don't like that, but it's what I remember from the NO books.

[Doomy]

Of course, if anyone actually became a New Order Supreme Master, Lone Wolf would pull the Uber Kai Grandmaster Disciplines out of his ass just so he could remain the top dog.

[Samildanach]

Lone Wolf from the Test of the Kai certainly would. ;D

[Aguila Saber]

Sept 10, 2008 6:20:03 GMT -5 eviltb said:

Been thinking about this one today.

Taking the date from when Sun Eagle founded the Kai Order (MS3810) to when it was destroyed in MS5050, that give us roughly 1200 years for the First Order.

Sun Eagle might have spent some time in Daziarn or elsewhere to explain this long time.

A few days there often transaltes to a few years on Magnamund.

I don't recall any passage in the books or other materials which have said there were no people possessing Kai Master disciplines.

What exactly are the arguments for there not being people with Kai Master disciplines?

If there hadn't been Kai Masters, then why did Lone Wolf need to find the Book of the Magnakai after the massacre, but no one needed to find it before the massacre?

While the Legends are not the most canon material I think Joe would have complained and corrected the information given in the Eclipse of Kai if had been totally false.

[Maerin]

I think it fair to point out, in deference to Doomy's confusion, that there is a slight, but important, difference between the ranking of a Kai Master and the ranking of a Kai Grandmaster. I am not saying this might lesson any confusion Doomy or others might have, but it is relevant to the overall topic under discussion.

A Kai that has learned all ten Kai Disciplines is a Kai Master. The same Kai who has learned one Magnakai Disciplines is still a Kai Master. Therefore, there is a one-step overlap between the two ranking structures. I think this is significant, because it potentially represents two distinct and different branches/paths once a Kai reaches the rank of Kai Master.

The first branch/path is the Kai who becomes a Master, but goes no further. Perhaps because he or she leaves the Monastery for another post, pehaps because he or she decides that teaching Kai children is that Master's future, perhaps some other, similar reason. These Masters are Kai Masters...but at least for the period in time in which they follow this path, they never become anything more. There is an element of back-up for the existence of this branch: the present of a Lorehall for each of the Magnakai Lore-circles, but also one general hall for Kai Masters in general.

The second branch-path is that represented by the Magnakai Disciplines. Since one must assume that such Disciplines do require some degree of additional education, training, and practice to achieve the higher degree of mastery, one might conclude that the Kai Masters that follow this path are distinctive in their role within the Order from their non-Magnakai Master counterparts (though there might remain considerable overlap in practice). This would be the branch selected by Kai Masters that have an eye towards developing themselves further; perhaps in abilities yes, but also perhaps in ranking within the Order. That is a different mentality than the one that might motivate the Masters that do not follow this branch/path. Honestly, this has a lot of parallels in our own world's professional communities. Certainly I know engineers that have "remained Kai Masters for the rest of their lives", other engineers that "started immediately on the Magnakai path upon becoming Kai Masters", and still other engineers that "remained Kai Masters for a time and THEN started on the Magnakai path" (I would count myself among this third category).

The Grandmaster ranking structure, however, is different from that of the Magnakai one. There is no overlap. A Kai Master knowing all ten of the Magnakai Disciplines is a Kai Grandmaster. A Kai Grandmaster that learns a single Grandmaster Discipline, however, is no longer merely a Kai Grandmaster. There is an immediate new rank assigned to the latter character, in contrast with the Kai Master rank structure. I find this significant, if only in terms of the mentalities that one might infer from that contrast. The core implication is that a Grandmaster that elects to follow the Grandmastery path is taking a very deliberate step, from day one, forever away from being a "typical" Kai Grandmaster. So it really cannot be viewed in exactly the same light as the Magnakai path.

Indeed, it is clear that there are quite a few other factors that distinguish the Magnakai path from the Grandmaster one. Structure is an important one. The Magnakai path has a distinctive name (they are not called the "Kai Master Disciplines"), an organizational structure in the form of the Lore-Circles, and a well-established and traditional history in the Order of the Kai (we know at least Lone Wolf and Sun Eagle followed that path and can obviously infer that many other Kai did as well, through the centuries). The Grandmaster path, however, has none of these things. Allegedly, no Kai before Lone Wolf ever walked that path to its conclusion, and there is at least some circumstantial evidence suggesting that few, if any, other Grandmasters did so at all before Lone Wolf. In fact, there is practically no evidence to suggest that the path might even have existed at all, prior to Lone Wolf setting out on it. The exact manner of Lone Wolf's completion of the Magnakai quest and his achievement of the rank of Kai Grandmaster was unique in the entire history of the Kai. No previous Kai, not even Sun Eagle, retained all the Lorestones and sought further power and insight from those artifacts of Nyxator. When one considers where Book 13 suggests Lone Wolf began unlocking the secrets of the Grandmaster Disciplines (his own chamber, crafted new at his direction beneath the Monastery, which suggests no such chamber ever existed before in either the old Monastery or the new one, and surrounded by all the Lorestones of Nyxator), it is quite plausible to conclude Lone Wolf was creating something that did not exist before at all in the Order. The lack of structure in the Grandmaster path, and its ranking differences as contrasted with the Magnakai, may be nothing more than an outcome of its newness in the history of the Order of the Kai (as well as, perhaps, a certain lack of originality and creativity on the part of Lone Wolf himself; no one's perfect).

[Black Cat]

To add to the confusion, the list of ranks for the NO Order (from the Reader's Handbook of PA):

4 Grand Master Senior--You begin the New Order adventures at this level of Grand Mastery
5 Grand Master Superior
6 Grand Sentinel
7 Grand Defender
8 Grand Guardian
9 Sun Knight
10 Sun Lord
11 Sun Thane
12 Grand Thane
13 Grand Crown
14 Sun Prince
15 Kai Supreme Master

So you don't start at the same level in book 21 than you did in book 13:

1 Kai Grand Master Senior
2 Kai Grand Master Superior
3 Kai Grand Sentinel
4 Kai Grand Defender--You begin the Lone Wolf Grand Master adventures at this level of Mastery
5 Kai Grand Guardian
6 Sun Knight
7 Sun Lord
8 Sun Thane
9 Grand Thane
10 Grand Crown
11 Sun Prince
12 Kai Supreme Master

In books 13 and 21, you have 4 Grand Disciplines, but not the same rank. Even if there's none listed, this doesn't mean that there're no names for the ranks in the NO for 1, 2 and 3 Grand Disciplines mastered. Of course, you have surely noticed that even if there're 16 Grand Disciplines to mastered in NO, you reach the rank of Supreme Master with only 15 of them, which is the number you'll have mastered at the start of book 32. As to why it is like this, this is another matter, but it surely has to do with the story of that last book. If you want, I can provide you links to different discussions regarding this.

[Maerin]

Maerin laughs. We may have just discovered Lone Wolf's weak spot. Once he runs out of fingers and toes, he can no long do sums consistently...

[Al]

I may be wrong on this, but I was always under the impression that the GM at the time of the massacre was lvl 17; that the Grand Master of the order was the senior Kai, and held the title Grand Master. Like Wuufy said, the captain of a ship is not always captain rank.

[Maerin]

There is no official source that definitively indicates what "level" any of the various Grandmasters are or have been, with the exceptions of Sun Eagle at some undescribed point in time (Book of the Magnakai roleplaying source) and Lone Wolf himself at various points in time (via the gamebooks).

The idea that a Grandmaster of the order might reflect a position independent of that Kai Master's actual Magnakai knowledge is largely speculative. It is possible, perhaps even probable (though it does presume a fairly liberal point of view on the overall subject which may not reflect the Kai Order realistically), but nonetheless not documentable.

[Ghost Bear]

I'm reasonably sure that the Legends said that the Grand Master at the time of the Massacre was an Archmaster (Level 18). Also, the Book of the Magnakai isn't 'official.

I'm not sure that Sun Eagle ever reached Grand Master - if he did, wouldn't it have been likely that he'd discover the Grand Master Disciplines?

-GB

[Doomy]

Oct 6, 2008 18:07:10 GMT -5 Ghost Bear said:

I'm reasonably sure that the Legends said that the Grand Master at the time of the Massacre was an Archmaster (Level 18).

Think I found your problem right there.

[koreth]

Oct 6, 2008 18:07:10 GMT -5 Ghost Bear said:

I'm reasonably sure that the Legends said that the Grand Master at the time of the Massacre was an Archmaster (Level 18). Also, the Book of the Magnakai isn't 'official.
-GB

It is also important to note that in the re-release of LW#1, there is an entirely different Master of the Order of the Kai. Not even the name was kept the same. I don't recall if it the re-released LW#1 mentioned his actual Kai Rank, but that would have been the best shot at answering this type of question.

In my mind, this change makes it more difficult to keep the Legends series at the same level of canon as the current Mongoose RPG. This can't be explained away as a typo, it has been changed altogether.

But when the video game gets released, we could have a different set of canon discussions altogether.

Advice: Stick with the gamebooks...then speculate from the more recent sub-canon released.

Having all these alternate realities can be confusing !

[Maerin]

Oct 6, 2008 18:07:10 GMT -5 Ghost Bear said:

I'm reasonably sure that the Legends said that the Grand Master at the time of the Massacre was an Archmaster (Level 18). Also, the Book of the Magnakai isn't 'official.

I've heard that idea cited more than once, but I have never been able to find any such reference in the book myself. If someone can actually come up with a page/text reference that would be nice. Whether one concludes the source is "official canon" or not, an actual reference would offer something to the conversation other than speculation.

In fact, I do not believe the novel actually mentions the Kai Grand Master explicitly (aside from a reference to his/her attire color) and does not name him/her. There is a reference to an Archmaster arriving at the Feast of Fehmarn, but to be arriving implies that she travelled from elsewhere (and it is further implied that "she" is Alyss in this case anyway).