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Post by kalsunrider on Aug 25, 2008 16:26:19 GMT -5
There seem to be a lot of references throughout the main RPG rulebook about, "The Old Races"; or, "The Ancients"; now I know in some contexts, "The Ancients" would be a way of referring to the Shianti; especially in parts of Magnamund (particularly in the North) where their actual name has been forgotten. But who are the others? There is mention of the Drodarin, that suffered from the same plague as the Elder Magi, but what are the Drodarin races? I know that it includes Giants and Dwarves; are there any others? Has it ever really been explained what other civilizations were on Magnamund other then men? In the entry for Dwarven Gunner of Bor, it states, "Bor Dwarves have refined their arts to a degree unrivaled by any race save the ancient ones who walked the land when mankind was little more then a few scattered, primitive tribes." So who were these ancient ones? Is it referring to the Shianti? Were there ever anything like elves on Magnamund? Anyone know if this was ever better explained in one of the books, or in any other form by Mr. Dever?
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Post by Balgin Stondraeg on Aug 25, 2008 16:39:21 GMT -5
Drodarin includes the Dwarfs, Giants, Ogrons and I think possibly the Kloon as well. It sees to be a pretty broad category that covers most non human humanoids races.
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Post by Al on Aug 25, 2008 17:07:21 GMT -5
My understanding is that the ancients are the Shianti, who lived long before the rise of the Drodarians (dwarfs etc). The Drodarians were nearly wiped out in the great plague which lead to the rise of man.
As for elves, I think the Shianti fill that role - they remind me of LOTR elves after the war of the ring and they leave for the Grey Havens.
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Post by Maerin on Aug 25, 2008 17:28:23 GMT -5
Actually, the Drodarin races, the Elder Magi, as well as certain branches of humanity like the Cenarese all predate the Shianti's presence in Magnamund by 2,000 to 3,000 years. Kinda makes that whole "Ancients" thing a bit amusing, does it not?
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Post by kalsunrider on Aug 25, 2008 18:59:09 GMT -5
Actually, the Drodarin races, the Elder Magi, as well as certain branches of humanity like the Cenarese all predate the Shianti's presence in Magnamund by 2,000 to 3,000 years. Kinda makes that whole "Ancients" thing a bit amusing, does it not? That's kind of what I was wondering on that bit about the skills of the dwarves being eclipsed only by those races who were ancient when man was just forming civilizations; not only did man discover civilization, but performed the first magic done by humans without the assistance of the ancient races/magi by curing the great plague significantly prior to the appearance of the Shianti. Just makes me wonder who those other ancient races are; I suppose we don't know because some/all are extinct, maybe from the plague?
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Post by Maerin on Aug 26, 2008 0:42:04 GMT -5
Part of the challenge is brought about simply because of the long and fairly continuous degree of recorded history that exists for Magnamund. It is, quite simply, an exceptionally old setting. And that means that there are huge periods of time to account for. For instance, in the modern day, one might look back and say that the "Ancients" or the "Majhan" were other names for the Shianti and, perhaps, there might even be a certain amount of truth there. But it also may be that the element of truth is very far from encompassing the whole and complete truth. Particularly when there is a lot of uncertainty on how and in what manner the various civilizations of the Drodarin may have manifest in their early days, before the Great Plague (perhaps even before the war with Agarash built to its climax), in what manner the Elder Magi existed in the centuries prior to the Great Plague, and perhaps even other human kindred that have completely vanished or completely changed into one of the more recent human groupings. We know something of the Shianti influence on some parts of the continent, yet not others. We have evidence in the very south portion of the continent that Shianti worship has extended into the "modern-day" of Magnamund, despite the Shianti and, presumably, much of their influence being removed from the world for several thousand years. The unknowns do suggest another truth to us (or at least a fairly decent conclusion anyway): there are a lot of pieces still missing from the puzzle.
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Post by Aguila Saber on Aug 26, 2008 11:26:17 GMT -5
Drodarin includes the Dwarfs, Giants, Ogrons and I think possibly the Kloon as well. It sees to be a pretty broad category that covers most non human humanoids races. Yes, Kloons are also Drodarin. I can also add the Patar to this list. From the accounts I've seen the Patar are Drodarin humanoids. (Patar is the Drodarin race which helped the Ceners unleash the Great Plague and who in later days are known as the Redeemers.) Much of the very old cultures are unclear. One of the most hard to explain things are the Ice-ships in Ixia who were propelled by Old Kingdom magic which must have predated the Elder Magi. Agarash the Damned and his servants predated the Elder Magi, they were sent to Magnamund after Agrarash had killed Nyxator, and since the magic predates the deathlord's necromantic arts it also predates (or they may possible be contemporary with) the Elder Magi. From what I've seen what differentiates men from Drodarin lies much more along the lines of bloodlines than outward appearance. Most of the Old Kingdom races were not men. Most of the Old Kingdom races that have survived until today were Drodarin. For the Telchoi which is one Old Kingdom race it is still unclear to me whether they are Human, Drodarin or something else in origin. Also for Ceners it could be speculated that they are not of human or Drodarin stock, but of some other race.
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Post by Maerin on Aug 26, 2008 16:18:35 GMT -5
Actually, you may have put your finger on a rather interesting theory: the idea of human-like Drodarin races. Certainly the Patar seem so fundamentally similar to humans that they are identified as human until fairly late in the series (unless one assumes at least most of the Redeemers Lone Wolf encounters are really human who just belong to an order founded by the Patar). The odd quirk of the idea of Patar as Drodarin is how they might have survived a Great Plague (whether they helped make it or not) that allegedly targetted "all" Drodarin, though it does make sense in almost every other respect.
Once one accepts the idea of human-like Drodarin, then a number of Magnamund cultures whose origins are otherwise rather mysterious are open the possibility of being of Drodarin stock (or perhaps Drodarin descent, if one assumes that they might be able to interbreed with humanity over time, and therefore that is how such human-semblence Drodarin might now exist). Cultures I am thinking of include the Telchoi but also the Vakeros and one or two others that have no obvious connection to the larger "migrations" of humanity (the Vakeros falling into this category then explains another mystery, why and how the Elder Magi might have chose Dessi for their ultimate retreat point in the wake of the Great Plague).
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Post by Al on Aug 26, 2008 16:43:17 GMT -5
It would also explain the human tribes that live in Bor and Boden.
Of course, a possibility is that "ancients" may not refer to a single culture, but rather encompass all cultures which are lost to memory.
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Post by Maerin on Aug 26, 2008 17:00:03 GMT -5
Of course, a possibility is that "ancients" may not refer to a single culture, but rather encompass all cultures which are lost to memory. That was essentially what I had in mind with my earlier post, though I would add that history is often characteristically reductionist (and certainly historians are!). Consequently, rather than concede a particular cultural element belongs to some "mysterious" culture lost to history, it is much more common for that element to be subsumed into some historical culture that is not lost to history. The consequences in our own world's history are manifold: elements of northeast African cultures in history all being "lumped" into the term "Egyptian" and widespread central and eastern Asian elements all being "lumped" into the term "Chinese" are only among the more common and typical examples. In some cases, this was done quite deliberately. Some cultures, the Romans for instance, went out of their way to "absorb" elements from previous cultures and recast them as "Roman". Considering how dominant the Shianti were in their time (benevolent dominance is still dominance), it would not be improbable that they might have been both capable and willing of such cultural absorption. But even were the Shianti not inclined towards that sort of thing in their time, subsequent centuries of historians would have been more than enough to bring about the same "reduction" approach to history that is so prevalent in our own world.
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Post by kalsunrider on Aug 26, 2008 17:14:59 GMT -5
The speculation that the Cenar might not be human doesn't seem to be entirely correct; unless I am mistaken, the Herbalish are a splinter group of the Cenar that chose not to follow them into the service of the Dark, and as a way of redeeming their past acts (though unspecified, acts that had to have taken place before the plague, as the Herbalish arose from the only circle not to participate in the rite creating the great plague) they created the antidote to the plague by brewing it from the hearts and brains of the Cenar; this was noted as being the first true act of Magic on the world of Magnamund done by humans without any assistance from the Gods or any of the Elder races; I think it's safe to assume that the Cenar had assistance from beyond the veil with their great rite. Does any of this make sense?
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Post by Maerin on Aug 26, 2008 18:16:33 GMT -5
The speculation that the Cenar might not be human doesn't seem to be entirely correct; unless I am mistaken, the Herbalish are a splinter group of the Cenar that chose not to follow them into the service of the Dark, and as a way of redeeming their past acts (though unspecified, acts that had to have taken place before the plague, as the Herbalish arose from the only circle not to participate in the rite creating the great plague) they created the antidote to the plague by brewing it from the hearts and brains of the Cenar; this was noted as being the first true act of Magic on the world of Magnamund done by humans without any assistance from the Gods or any of the Elder races; I think it's safe to assume that the Cenar had assistance from beyond the veil with their great rite. Does any of this make sense? Problem is, that does not actually say anything conclusive about the Cenar themselves. After all, if creating the antidote to the Plague was the first true act of magic performed by humans, than what was creating the Plague in the first place (if one assumes that the Cenar created it; is the factoid you count above inclusive or exclusionary of Drodarin?)? Or, put another way, if the Plague was not created, release, and/or directed by magic, then how was the creation of the antidote magical? We just do not have enough information to piece answers to those sorts of questions satisfactorily, and so the information you note is not comprehensively conclusive (and therefore may not be factual in practice, no matter how stated as "fact"). At best, we may not be able to infer much at all from the information, no matter how relatively factual it might be. The RPG did introduce some much-more-recent concepts, such as a God of disease that might permit one to putty in some of the holes left trying to assemble the pieces. But that information has its own problems associated with it (in the RPG, the Cenar are derived from the pre-existing...and already magical...Herbalish, rather than the other way around).
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Post by kalsunrider on Aug 26, 2008 22:44:48 GMT -5
The "Magic of Magnamund" sourcebook states that the Cenerese were once the, "shepherds of the natural forces of Magnamund." and that, "One fateful night, the Cenerese betrayed the land itself in a great ritual that took place simultaneously across Northern Magnamund. Every Cenar grove, with the exception of the one circle near Talon in Bautar, hosted a black rite of blood and darkness." This tells us that it was not the Cenar that came from the Herbalish, but the other way around; that one circle near Talon in Bautar is the circle of Cenerese that repented their evil and became the Herbalish.
As for how the plague was conceived; in the History of Magnamund, it states that the Cenar practiced, "a very dark form of druidic magic, using black sorcery 'given to them in dreams' to release a terrible plague upon Central Magnamund". The fact that it was "given to them in dreams" suggests the intervention of an outside force, such as Naar, or Vurnos (the Dark God of Disease listed in The Darklands), and hence it's not an example of humanity practicing or inventing magic on their own; just as it wouldn't be for any humans taught by the Elder Magi before their decline. As for the cure to the Great Plague created by the Herbalish, it states, "The great ritual cured the Plague but it also marked a more momentous occasion. The Herbalish had been human and their rite was an act of pure magic. For the first time, human born men had worked magic without the aid or power of the Old Races." This does insinuate, that the powers the Herbalish now possess were not available to the Cenerese prior to their corruption, or if they were, they were possibly instructed in them by one of the Old Races, just as they were in their new, darker abilities by whoever visited them in their dreams. So yes, the Plague was magical, but it was an assisted magic, while the Herbalish figured out how to cure it all on their own.
Yes, I have too much time on my hands <grin>
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Post by Aguila Saber on Aug 27, 2008 0:49:50 GMT -5
I would tend to hold information in the Magnamund Companion and gamebook 10 as more reliable than "Magic in Magnamund". MC: The Age of the Old Kingdoms welcomed the arrival of new civilizations and new hope for a world scarred by war, but it also saw the emergence of a sinister force. The Cenerese, a race of treacherous Druids, appeared in Central Magnamund shortly before the Great Plague swept slowly and systematically across the world, leaving the Elder Magi and the Drodarin peoples decimated in its wake. Their power spread until the arrival of the Herbalish, a holy order devoted to the healing arts, defeated them in a long and bitter war. LW #10 section #298. During the Age of the Old Kingdoms, when the Elder Magi ruled the land, this temple was a place of learning and experimentation. It was here they developed their knowledge and understanding of nature, and many beneficial discoveries were made to the betterment of Magnamund. The guardians of this laboratory were a Drodarin race called the Patar. They served the Elder Magi and in return they were entrusted with their newfound secrets of herbcraft and druidic lore. But the Patar betrayed that trust when they allowed the Cenerese, a clan of evil druids, into the temple to plunder its secrets. The Cenerese called upon their Demonlord, who appeared in this very chamber. He took all that the Elder Magi had nurtured and cultivated, and he turned it against them in the form of a deadly plague that decimated their race. In the wake of their destruction, the Cenerese and Patar rose to power, but their reign was short-lived. A clan of goodly druids called the Herbalish, who had helped the surviving Elder Magi to escape their enemies during the years of the Great Plague, waged war on the Cenerese and were victorious.
The Patar fled the temple in shame and gave a solemn pledge to the Herbalish that they would redeem their act of treachery by devoting themselves to the study of the healing arts and by striving to defeat disease in all its forms. Ever since, the descendants of the Patar have been known as the Redeemers, and each new generation has upheld that ancient vow.
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Post by Maerin on Aug 27, 2008 0:52:23 GMT -5
The "Magic of Magnamund" sourcebook states that the Cenerese were once the, "shepherds of the natural forces of Magnamund." and that, "One fateful night, the Cenerese betrayed the land itself in a great ritual that took place simultaneously across Northern Magnamund. Every Cenar grove, with the exception of the one circle near Talon in Bautar, hosted a black rite of blood and darkness." This tells us that it was not the Cenar that came from the Herbalish, but the other way around; that one circle near Talon in Bautar is the circle of Cenerese that repented their evil and became the Herbalish. You have the quoted info more or less correct, but the actual interpretation could go either way, and probably does depending on whether you ask the Herbalish or the Cenar for their point of view. Consider, however, whose subsequent practices matches closer the description of the original practices. On that level, it becomes apparent that the Cenar-from-Herbalish inference could be a more plausible explanation than the opposite. There is, unfortunately, no counter-balancing piece of information defending the opposite, when considered from that point of view. In either case, however, that still maintains the point that both cultures were magical, both are described as magical in such a fashion as to not be associated with Gods (either explicitly or implicitly), and therefore both as presented in Magic of Magnamund cause consistency problems with the original premise: that the antidote to the Plague was the first expression of human magic. That remains the more problematic flaw of what I pointed out previously. The fact that it was "given to them in dreams" suggests the intervention of an outside force... The cited text is, again, mostly correct. But the conclusion drawn is even more of a complete guess than the previous case. It is just as logical to infer that the dream came from their own evil imaginations, as dreams typically do for humans (even in Magnamund; after all, it was termed a "dream" and not a "vision"). Nothing in the text actually contributes more to one interpretation over another. I am not saying your interpretation is wrong, but there is little there to suggest it is particularly right, either. And that was the primary point made earlier. It is not a matter of whether someone can come up with a hypothetical explanation (that is relatively easy). It is whether or not there is sufficient information to draw conclusions, which there is clearly not. Yes, I have too much time on my hands <grin> Unfortunately, when one parses speculation back out, one is left with the same facts in both cases and no single, logical conclusions. Your explanation may be accurate, mostly accurate, or completely inaccurate; but it is only one among several co-equal ones because of the lack of sufficient information. And that lack is not at all changed nor influenced by how much time you might have on your hands...
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