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Post by Beowuuf on Aug 24, 2008 11:23:15 GMT -5
I think crymson is going by the established canon here for CS/EP, and in this case Banedon, Grey Star and LW all use the same CS set up. The same has carried on in the mini-adventures except for Loi Kymar because he is 'an old man'. And, of course, Grey Star's reliance on his wizard's staff or else a greater unarmed penalty
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Post by huntingmoon on Aug 24, 2008 20:16:54 GMT -5
Something that I have always found to be dificult when designing anythig for a Kai lord is that the gamebooks are based on the idea that Lone Wolf gets stuff others don't because he is a Kai. Same with Grey Star, some dork can't walk into a market and pop on a cloak to use Mind over Matter; Lone Wolf is tailor made for classes as written in the game books.
That said you can still design a basic set of classes and not link them to a regeon. For example, I was irritated with the mix of northern and southern classes pre blended to an area. I would have been happier with a generic casting class, fighting class, shifty dude class, and healing class. Then we could apply trappings for the area: Let the Dessi and Brotherhood fight about how thier stuff is differant, just rename a few of thier powers and add a few exclusives and you get two totally differant classes. Sommlending Knights and Duranor Knights are not really all that differant (IMHO), I would make Sommlending a little tougher due to constant border patroling the Darklands and give more investigative abilites to the Duranor. In fact, you could limit the number of powers a tier gets for basic, advanced, or Grandmaster equivelent so they can specialize more effectivly and to further diferentiate them from each other and just require a signature ability per country. For example, all Knights are great riders from the Stornlands. Does that mean there cant be great riders from Duranor? Heck no, but the Stornlands are renown for them.
Just rambling aloud to myself.
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Post by Maerin on Aug 24, 2008 21:54:06 GMT -5
*chuckles* Your rambling does illustrate you succumbing a bit to the temptation you describe, the idea that Sommerlending Knights might be a little "tougher" on the basis that they are doing more in the setting (essentially the same argument as that of the Kai Lord). That basis actually completely lacks, since a knight on horseback would likely be worse than useless patroling the mountainous border with the Darklands AND Durenor has its own history of wars with others too (arguably a more recent history than Sommerlund, at least in the days prior to MS5050). However, it is hard not to let that Sommerlending bias that tends to plague game designs for Magnamund creep into the equation. Other than to point that out, you generally have the right of it. In a class-based system, it is better to design general classes that can be "customized" than to design very individualized ones that cannot be so readily used.
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crymson
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Post by crymson on Aug 25, 2008 3:13:02 GMT -5
You see, I actually think the specific nature of the classes in the RPG is a strength rather than a weakness, at least from a flavour/fluff point of view. No mpre generic fighters or wizards running around with very thin backstories created by lazy players; instead, each class fills a specific purpose, not just in the game, but within the setting.
Ok. I can actually justify a generic 'Adventurer' class in Magnamund (I'm looking at you, Viveka). My only problem there is how to create it without having the 'bard effect'; basically good at everything but not great at any one thing. My initial thoughts are to give it some geneirc abilities such as Weaponry (like Weaponskill), Arcana (maybe the ability to cast minor magics, or to choose some spells from other classes), Athletics, Lore (very intelligent adventurer), Acrobatics, Stealth... etc etc. You see where I am going with this.
On the note of the specific classes, although they are tied to the background fluff quite tightly, I have no problems with anyone choosing to use the rules as the basis for a character type from somewhere else. Like the Sommlending Knight? Want to make him be from Durenor or Lencia instead? Go for it! Want to be a human from Talestria but like the Dwarven Gunner rules? If you can come with the story as to why your Talestrian knows all about guns, go for it! Want to play a wandering mage from the Sadi desert? You could choose just to use the rules of the Brotherhood or even the Elder Magi if you wanted to, no problems!
In short, this is OUR game, not mine; feel free to change background details of the classes as much as you want.
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Post by Beowuuf on Aug 25, 2008 3:58:20 GMT -5
I know I have vague rules for an RPG (based on rules for an advanced gamebook) and I chose to try and make the 'classes' into 'callings' instead, as they were architypes of a certain character balance. Eg - someone who was central on the heart/body axis is a 'knight' meaning they have a strong personal/ethical code from some source (internal or external territory) and good physical/martial skills. Whether that person chooses to flavour their character by actually taking a job of knight, soldier, tactician, diplomat or even a common adventurer is their further choice
However, despite this it became obvious that the 'calling' was still the backbone of the character and their abilities, despite the flavours or direction provided. So I agree, defined roles are not bad, and classes are a very good shorthand to balance the game. I do think though the rigid structure of the LW RPG class where you have a solid progression with fixed skills does seek to make narrowly defined characters.
Out of interested, there was an 'adventurer' calling that was the central intersection of all the character types. My example for that archtype was Indiana Jones - who is an archaeologist in job and specialises in physical and mental disciplines, but he still has his personality dipped in all areas - he can accept, eventually, the spiritual and of course is the solid 'hero' aswell (another calling).
Anyway, that was OT - darn this day off for wasting time!
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crymson
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Post by crymson on Aug 25, 2008 5:47:06 GMT -5
So I agree, defined roles are not bad, and classes are a very good shorthand to balance the game. I do think though the rigid structure of the LW RPG class where you have a solid progression with fixed skills does seek to make narrowly defined characters. My other thought was to make some generalized skills that any class could take, like someone has already mentioned I believe. These skills would not be as powerful as the skills listed for each class, and would still be similar in style to what the Adventurer class had, but might provide some more general options for characters to choose from.
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Post by Simey on Aug 25, 2008 6:31:53 GMT -5
I would have been happier with a generic casting class, fighting class, shifty dude class, and healing class. Then we could apply trappings for the area Agreed. And I want to play the shifty dude class! ;D I think my main problem with the LWRPG classes is that they are so strait-jacketed. Once you get to level 20 (not that anyone ever does) all your BotCS or KotR or whatever are all pretty much the same. This means that even if you do adapt them to other parts of Magnamund you end up with the same problem of similarity. Plus, personally, my preference would usually be for playing a non-special class of some sort. The excitement for me is more the adventuring in the wonderful setting that is Magnamund, rather than playing a particularly special type of person. And the other thing is that you'll typically have a party made up of a Kai Lord, a Sommlending Knight, a Vakeros, a BotCS and a Shadakine Buccanear - or some such wildly unlikely group of associates - and that just seems ridiculous! Far more likely that a Kai Lord would - as in, say, the Legends ( ) - associate with a fighter (e.g. Qinefer), an adventurer (e.g. Viveka), a soldier (e.g. Petra) and occasionally a BotCS (e.g. Banedon). Yes, Lone Wolf does go adventuring with a Vakeros (Paido), but not at the same time as a whole bunch of other extra-special people. In the gamebooks he is typically accompanied by an army officer of some kind rather than anyone with any special powers. Obviously in an RPG game you have to stretch things a little, but I would see a party as most likely having one or two central characters (a Kai and a BotCS, for example) with a group of two or three less powerful people around them who nevertheless have important skills that can help them out. Anyway, I'm only throwing my ideas out - I'm up for playing in whatever set-up you like.
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crymson
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Post by crymson on Aug 25, 2008 6:34:47 GMT -5
I'm currently writing up some generalized skills, as well as an Adventurer class.
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crymson
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Post by crymson on Aug 25, 2008 7:37:35 GMT -5
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Post by Maerin on Aug 25, 2008 14:14:16 GMT -5
Maerin chuckles I think this Adventurer takes my observations about the problems of class systems rather overboard and misses the happy middle ground which ought to be the goal. But I guess one can try it out and see if it actually works in a satisfactory fashion.
It really is not in-line with your other current classes, however. Once again, without knowing what a "skill" does in this system, it is hard to particularly "measure" this class.
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Post by huntingmoon on Aug 25, 2008 19:36:44 GMT -5
If the classes were not so hardwired to a regeon I would not have had such a time with them. How useful is a Kundi mystic anyway? How many adventures would we run in Southern Magnamund? Since the class was written for a particular mindset and type it becomes harder to re-write. Shadakine are clearly outlined as a rouge/pirate type and making into a Vassangian street rat becomes much more challanging that I feel it should be.
I love Savage Worlds for this. One of these days I will try and work out a Savage Lone Wolf system, already one of the biggest challanges I had was simulating the pick 10 abilities withing thier leveling structure. At some point I will overcome it but for now I can marvel at its simplicity and concentrate on my new NWOD game. Someday I will finish my Nessicary Evil game.
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