|
Post by Doomy on Aug 19, 2008 8:30:55 GMT -5
It would be cool if you could make the LW gamebooks playable to some extent with these alternate classes, but I think it would require some pretty major rewriting.
Oh, and BCS Lightning Hand looks rather underpowered.
|
|
|
Post by Beowuuf on Aug 19, 2008 8:49:25 GMT -5
How did the MC handle it?
|
|
crymson
Junior Member
Eternalknight
Posts: 90
|
Post by crymson on Aug 19, 2008 8:55:23 GMT -5
How did the MC handle it? Lightning Hand or multiple combats?
|
|
|
Post by Doomy on Aug 19, 2008 8:56:31 GMT -5
Didn't it just fry a couple of Giaks, no rolling required? I forget if Banedon got to use it against the Helghast (Vordak?) "boss monster" in the mini-adventure.
|
|
|
Post by Maerin on Aug 19, 2008 11:27:21 GMT -5
I think that most cases of multiple combat are going to be on the bad-guy/monster side. As a playability issue, you would never want to lump all the player characters together for reasons already mentioned. The problem is mainly in the one-on-one exclusive rule that existed when I made my previous comments.
So I would look at the situation of multiple opponents primarily from a villain standpoint. It is correct that you want each of the player character's own unique abilities to always be in play (after, it is important to always remember that the game is about them). That being the case, you may not need to overthink this too much. If a member of the group is fighting multiple giaks, then assess a combat skill and endurance score based on the circumstances of what the hero is fighting. In the end, those individual circumstances are likely to matter much more than any generalizations you might craft up-front. If, alternatively, a player decides to face one adversary at a time (especially if they can maneuver the tactical situation so that only one adversary can get at them at any one time), then use the rules as you have written them now.
|
|
|
Post by Maerin on Aug 19, 2008 11:35:50 GMT -5
Ranged combat was what I had the problem with the most. Did I do it this way (and then mimic the books somewhat) or try to implement something using the CRT? I might go back and work something up for that instead. The trouble here is the books use both methods. There are occasions where the book calls for a discrete shot, with a single roll, to accomplish a particular objective. Then, you can also use a bow at the beginning of many combats in keeping with the ordinary gamebook combat system. In the end, the only differences between those two circumstances is, one, relative effectiveness (the former being generally more effective than the latter); and two, the latter takes place in close (if not actually yet melee) combat/tactical circumstances where the former is not offered as an option (we see Lone Wolf able to take more careful aim, with less of an immediate threat close to him in most, if not all, circumstances related to the former). There are occasional, if much more rare, circumstances where Lone Wolf makes a single, discrete "roll" to use a melee weapon too, outside of the combat/tactical environment. I would suggest again that, as a matter of combat system, one sticks with the one system as much as possible. When accuracy has a single objective and a more skill-oriented roll might be in the offing, one might approach that in however fashion you are planning on addressing other applications of skill (which was not in the first iteration draft rules you posted yesterday). Classes is something necessary, I think. I will post a couple shortly. I have no problems reserving an opinion on the subject until I get a chance to look at what one comes up with.
|
|
|
Post by Maerin on Aug 19, 2008 11:39:44 GMT -5
You are still making value judgements on damage, in the case of the dagger and the spear as ranged weapons, and those are going to be more trouble for you than they are worth. There are many spears that are designed to be thrown, and often are every bit as potentially deadly as a bow. I can understand the principle of reducing the damage of a thrown dagger...but I am not certain a single and possibly limited category of exceptions represent a good rule (especially since you can get into some weird definition problems with certain cultures in Magnamund having daggers that can be thrown quite well, and others quite poorly). Some might argue that there is a game balance consideration: a dagger or a spear might be used in both melee combat or ranged combat, whereas a bow might only be used in ranged combat. To that arguement, I would point out the obvious counters: a person who throws their weapon away is not able to use that weapon in melee combat, and if they are already in melee combat, it probably is not possible (or likely) that they will ever throw their weapon away at all. Considering the limits on how many of those weapons a person is permitted by the rules to carry according to the rules, that makes it even less likely than a weapon intended as a melee weapon will be used as a ranged weapon.
|
|
|
Post by Beowuuf on Aug 19, 2008 12:20:00 GMT -5
Crymson, have you actually looked at the MC ragadorn tavern? It has missile throwing rules (it's a random number you have to roll above, versus distance, with a set damage)
I think rolling on the CR chart is acceptable though and much more flexible!
I had actually asking what the MC did for lightining bolt - as said, there is no consistent damage. Personally, i think you shoudl simple allow a damage roll on the combat ratio table as per any other combat
Ragadorn taverns only allows for one on one combat, not a group fighting a group. Basicaly, each time you attack an opponent, they then get the chance to attack you back - so two rounds of combat are engaged, each combatant takign a turn being 'Lone Wolf'
|
|
crymson
Junior Member
Eternalknight
Posts: 90
|
Post by crymson on Aug 19, 2008 19:07:55 GMT -5
Firstly, a big thank you for all the constructive comments. You guys are helping tighten the system up quite nicely!
Maerin: I see your point about damage (again). And your point about throwing your weapon away is valid. Maybe these weapons can only be thrown short distances, whereas bows, crossbows and bor rifles can go much further. (In addition I am thinking that ANY weapon can be thrown, but if it is not a spear or dagger you suffer a -4 Combat Skill penalty).
Beowuuf: Yeah I looked at the MC after you mentioned it above. The ranged combat there does use a pick on the random number table, but I think I will stick to using the CRT. I was hoping it had rules for multiple combats....
Speaking of which, I have had several thoughts. Use the current system (only strike at one opponent); or allow the character to strike at each opponent but with a -2 CS penalty for each additional opponent he is facing; but I think I like Maerin's suggestion above. The books treat multiple opponents attacking Lone Wolf as one enemy, often with higher CS and EP scores than a single version of that creature. I think the same could be done here. Maybe adding a +1 CS and +2 EP to the total for each additional creature?
So, if a single Giak was CS 12, EP 10, 3 Giaks would be CS 14, EP 14.
Obviously, if there were three chracters each would fight a single Giak. If it come down to multiple characters onto a single monster, then we can apply the reverse; the monster suffers a -1 CS (or possibly -2?) penalty for each person attacking him, though it means he gets to strike back at everyone.
The advantage to this system is that each player gets to attack, while still keeping all their special abilities.
In regards to Lightning Hand... the method I used was just simple and clean. Maybe treating it as a ranged attack is the way to go as Beowuuf suggests.
|
|
crymson
Junior Member
Eternalknight
Posts: 90
|
Post by crymson on Aug 19, 2008 20:02:15 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Beowuuf on Aug 20, 2008 0:39:45 GMT -5
I think +1CS and +2CS is way, way to low. I like my cs/4, as it still makes giaks, etc as the same as you have, but more powerful groups as fearsome as they should be. The EP can be m,aybe /2, but you could cap the CS bonus at four or eight participants - only do many people can actually get up in front to attack, but a large group still has more EP since you have to wade through them
|
|
crymson
Junior Member
Eternalknight
Posts: 90
|
Post by crymson on Aug 20, 2008 1:22:59 GMT -5
So, under your method, the 3 Giaks would be Combat Skill 18 and Endurance 20?
What if you had, say, three Knights that are CS 18 and EP 20. As a group they would be CS 26 and EP 40?
Does that seem a little extreme?
What if we made it +2CS and +4EP per extra combatant? Remember I'm trying to make this quick and easy (not that this is hard).
Then the three Giaks (usually CS 12 EP 10) would be CS 16 EP 18, and thre three Knights would be CS 22 and EP 28.
|
|
|
Post by Beowuuf on Aug 20, 2008 1:30:55 GMT -5
maybe! then again, some of the fights in LW dop seem extreme - and I'm sure ganior and thing combined in the book did come off as being an insane CS
And actually, why have I been saying /4 when I meant /5 so +2 per 10CS
|
|
crymson
Junior Member
Eternalknight
Posts: 90
|
Post by crymson on Aug 20, 2008 1:34:48 GMT -5
Ok, so going from a /5... the Giaks would be CS 16 EP 20, while the Knights would be CS 24 EP 40.
The EP still seems off to me... but I can handle the CS at /5. Maybe EP should be /5 as well? That way, the Giaks would be CS 16 EP 14, the Knights CS 24 EP 28?
|
|
|
Post by Beowuuf on Aug 20, 2008 1:38:18 GMT -5
www.projectaon.org/en/xhtml/lw/02fotw/sect7.htmSee what i mean, two knights are quite powerful - viveka is CS 24, so if she is comparable the boost is not huge, but is still great. The step up in CR to damage is not that great, whereas two opponents attacking you, or more, should be inflicting far more damage per round unless you are skillful at doging/deflecting blows Under your system, powerful party memebrs would easily outstrip large groups. BAsically, there is no insentive to group monsters, instead you'd create alot of smaller enounters just to provide a challenge. Anyway, the reason to hold your campaign was to tweak the figures, so things liek this really need playtested! I owuld go through thouroughly the gamebooks on each fight, and see the boost in mouted to not mounted, and groups versus individual types to find a figure that feels 'right' and then see how that playtests when you have multiple heroes
|
|