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Post by wildhare on Jun 5, 2008 8:21:33 GMT -5
Hello I was just wondering if there are any black people in Magnamund and where they come from. I have read through the gazetteer section and can find no mention of any, anywhere at all. I could just make it up for my Game but I would like to keep it pretty authentic for my players. Who have been waiting 20 years for a Lonewolf RPG.  |
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Post by Slavemaster on Jun 5, 2008 16:28:01 GMT -5
In the Magnamund Companion, there is an illustration of a warrior from Bhanar, who is black (looks a bit like a Zulu warrior). However, in the gamebooks set in Bhanar (Vampirium and Hunger of Sejanoz), the people are asian-looking. I know this has been discussed on the old forums, but I can't remember much of the debate. I myself choose to interpret it so that Bhanar is a vast country and may have more than one ethnic group.
The people of Telchos may also be dark-skinned, but probably more like North Africans than people from Sub-saharan Africa. Just my own take on the issue.
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Post by Beowuuf on Jun 5, 2008 16:30:46 GMT -5
Paido the Vakeros himself was ebony skinned (and cat eyed)
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Post by Black Cat on Jun 5, 2008 16:36:24 GMT -5
They modified it in the PA's version of the MC. It's now a Lissanian, which makes more sense since the guy facing him is probably a soldier from Chai, the neighbor country that we know is populated with people similar to our Chinese.
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Post by Slavemaster on Jun 5, 2008 16:55:31 GMT -5
Paido the Vakeros himself was ebony skinned (and cat eyed) Oh yes, forgot about that. But he also had blond hair, right?  |
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Post by Maerin on Jun 5, 2008 17:07:14 GMT -5
The impression one is given of Bhanar (both in the Companion and in the New Order books) makes them culturally, if not physically, more Indian than African. It seems likely that many of the peoples of southwestern Magnamund may be of similar ethnicity. The Companion lumping together the Tianese and Mythenish nations into one section does not help, nor does the description of Chai as being Mythenish. The artwork in that section does depict two clearly different ethnicities.
No offense, but there are times, rare but still present, where Project Aon does take things a bit unnecessarily far in terms of "clarifying" the work they are publishing on the web. Their re-labeling of the artwork in the Companion, when there is no readily apparent contradiction either obvious or implied, seems to represent one of those cases.
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Post by Balgin Stondraeg on Jun 5, 2008 18:34:45 GMT -5
One of the beautiful things about Magnamund is that it's very multi cultural. "Humans" are not simply lumped into one generic race (with few details jotted down about their lifestyles). The different human nations in Magnamund have varying cultural details that make it feel more like a real world (while some other gamebook series' felt more like a visit to a freakshow where normal humans were a rare feature that stood out like a sore thumb).
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Post by Black Cat on Jun 5, 2008 18:37:37 GMT -5
No offense, but there are times, rare but still present, where Project Aon does take things a bit unnecessarily far in terms of "clarifying" the work they are publishing on the web. Their re-labeling of the artwork in the Companion, when there is no readily apparent contradiction either obvious or implied, seems to represent one of those cases. Oh, but the map of book 27 shows the land of Bhanar with, as a decoration on the side, a soldier that is not dressed as shown in the MC but more like a Japanese samurai. I doubt that Brian William would had put that samurai there if it is not linked to the country that is represented. |
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Post by Maerin on Jun 5, 2008 19:56:36 GMT -5
Oh, but the map of book 27 shows the land of Bhanar with, as a decoration on the side, a soldier that is not dressed as shown in the MC but more like a Japanese samurai. I doubt that Brian William would had put that samurai there if it is not linked to the country that is represented. Perhaps not, but the Japanese were hardly the only oriental culture to use some form of scaled armor, even armor with that particular styling. That aside, what you are citing is nothing more than real-world bias: the idea that, just because one, single, unrelated element of a culture may bear resemblence to a real world one, a person can infer that everything about that culture (and all associated factors, including ethnicity) must therefore also resemble that real world culture. That is not even remotely a logical arguement. In fact, I submit you might agree that to be a fairly absurd assertion even if one puts logic aside. Certainly their appears to be unique character associated with virtually every other nation and culture in Magnamund, despite occasional, specific resemblences to specific parts of our own world. Since that illustration you reference shows absolutely no skin or facial features, we can infer nothing from it. You would be better off citing some of the other illustrations in that same book, which actually do show Bhanarians faces, hairstyles, and other features that actually share elements of several different eastern/oriental cultures (including, but not limited to, both Japanese and Indian cultural elements in various illustrations). The one thing those pictures are not, in any way, capable of conveying, is skin tone. No matter how good the artist, it is virtually impossible to draw a dark skin tone in a strictly black-and-white illustration. That is just reality, and nothing more can be inferred beyond that. Or would you suggest that, obviously, Vassagonians and Sommerlending all have pale skin tones (despite the explicit text evidence saying otherwise) because the illustrations of Vassagonians in Book 5 are, by necessity, all as "pale" as any other characters? |
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Post by Slavemaster on Jun 5, 2008 20:25:39 GMT -5
Perhaps not, but the Japanese were hardly the only oriental culture to use some form of scaled armor, even armor with that particular styling. Well, no, but as far as us westerners are concerned, that style of armour means "Japanese" style That aside, what you are citing is nothing more than real-world bias: the idea that, just because one, single, unrelated element of a culture may bear resemblence to a real world one, a person can infer that everything about that culture (and all associated factors, including ethnicity) must therefore also resemble that real world culture. That is not even remotely a logical arguement. In fact, I submit you might agree that to be a fairly absurd assertion even if one puts logic aside. Certainly their appears to be unique character associated with virtually every other nation and culture in Magnamund, despite occasional, specific resemblences to specific parts of our own world. The thing is, parallells to real-world culture is a narrative technique used in most works of fantasy and science fiction to help the reader picture the world and culture that is described. It has nothing to do with prejudice or real-world bias, but is simply an aid to the reader (even if, admittedly, that aid hinges on national clichés and stereotypes...). This is because it is extremely difficult, even for a very creative mind, to come up with a truly unique culture that will not automatically be associated by the reader with some real-world culture. And even if the author succeeds, then he will only have made it more difficult for the reader to picture the world. I find nothing wrong with using this "real-world cultural counterpart" technique. This means that you can describe a character from a different culture with very few words and then the reader can easily picture him. For example, if you tell the reader that the dwarf says "ach laddie, fancy a dram of whiskey?", then you will expect him (or at least not be surprised) if he also likes haggis and plays the bagpipes; what you would not expect is the dwarf to dress in a kimono and play the sitar. Yes, maybe it cements stereotypes and national clichés; but it is, when all is said and done, simply an efficient narrative technique for the benefit of the reader. Compared to many other authors, JD have done a good job as it is with presenting the different cultures of Magnamund as unique and not too obviously based on real-world cultures. Still, there are likenesses, and for us who roleplay in the world and have to occasionally throw in things not covered by the books, it is very convenient to be able to use real-world cultures to flesh out areas, characters and nations they seem to be most closely based on. Hope you see what I'm getting at here, it is really to late in the night for me to engage in this kind of controversial subject. |
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Post by Black Cat on Jun 5, 2008 20:26:52 GMT -5
Oh, but the map of book 27 shows the land of Bhanar with, as a decoration on the side, a soldier that is not dressed as shown in the MC but more like a Japanese samurai. I doubt that Brian William would had put that samurai there if it is not linked to the country that is represented. Perhaps not, but the Japanese were hardly the only oriental culture to use some form of scaled armor, even armor with that particular styling. That aside, what you are citing is nothing more than real-world bias: the idea that, just because one, single, unrelated element of a culture may bear resemblence to a real world one, a person can infer that everything about that culture (and all associated factors, including ethnicity) must therefore also resemble that real world culture. That is not even remotely a logical arguement. In fact, I submit you might agree that to be a fairly absurd assertion even if one puts logic aside. Certainly their appears to be unique character associated with virtually every other nation and culture in Magnamund, despite occasional, specific resemblences to specific parts of our own world. Since that illustration you reference shows absolutely no skin or facial features, we can infer nothing from it. You would be better off citing some of the other illustrations in that same book, which actually do show Bhanarians faces, hairstyles, and other features that actually share elements of several different eastern/oriental cultures (including, but not limited to, both Japanese and Indian cultural elements in various illustrations). The one thing those pictures are not, in any way, capable of conveying, is skin tone. No matter how good the artist, it is virtually impossible to draw a dark skin tone in a strictly black-and-white illustration. That is just reality, and nothing more can be inferred beyond that. Or would you suggest that, obviously, Vassagonians and Sommerlending all have pale skin tones (despite the explicit text evidence saying otherwise) because the illustrations of Vassagonians in Book 5 are, by necessity, all as "pale" as any other characters? *Sigh*  The point is that the Bhanarian warrior on the map in book 27 is not dressed as the one in the MC that the people of PA renamed as a Lissanian. I have never talked about skin-color. While the Bhanarian on the map of book 27 has a complex armor, the warrior in the MC seems to wear beast hides. There is obviously a contradiction between them if they are both illustrations of Bhanarian warriors. If they are, then one of them represents a minority group of the country and would had been labelled as such. |
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Post by Ghost Bear on Jun 6, 2008 1:45:41 GMT -5
It's entirely possible that the pictures represent two different castes of warrior. Not every Japanese warrior of those periods would have been a Samurai. For centuries, the Samurai were aristocrats after all.
-GB
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Post by Samildanach on Jun 6, 2008 7:20:09 GMT -5
One of the beautiful things about Magnamund is that it's very multi cultural. "Humans" are not simply lumped into one generic race (with few details jotted down about their lifestyles). The different human nations in Magnamund have varying cultural details that make it feel more like a real world (while some other gamebook series' felt more like a visit to a freakshow where normal humans were a rare feature that stood out like a sore thumb). Agreed. In a great many fantasy works, humans have one generic culture, with other species providing the only variety. JD makes a commendable job of diversifying the humanity of Magnamund. |
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Post by Maerin on Jun 6, 2008 9:06:46 GMT -5
It's entirely possible that the pictures represent two different castes of warrior. A point I would agree with too. After all, again to keep with the illustrations of Bhanarians in more books than just one, we do see variations in style and dress...in some cases fairly significant ones, Black Cat, if you wish to focus on just that as your point in a disconnect from the post discussion thread immediately previous. But, if Black Cat wants me to address just his argument in particular, without putting it in the context of this discussion, I will make the two counter-points that can be made to just his post: 1. Just as Lissan borders on Chai, so does Bhanar. Further, as we see in the gamebooks, Chai has a fairly well-established history of enmity for Bhanar (consider the history of wars described in the text, as well as the degrees and types of fortifications dividing the two lands). Even if one accepts an argument that Lissan and Chai may also have been adversaries at one point in time or another (a reasonable guess), it is fairly apparent that their level of mutual antagonism has certainly been less significant. Consider, for instance, how willing the Emperor of Chai was to flee to Lissan when Sejanoz successfully invaded in The Hunger of Sejanoz. 2. If one is going to compare the depictions of the warrior in Magnamund Companion with the illustrations in the gamebooks and then make the argument that, since the war dress is different therefore the warrior depicted must be a different nationality…then one further needs to do so with the interpretation that the warrior we are discussing is Lissanian as well. There are two illustrations of the Masbate in what is apparently their war dress War of the Wizards and one illustration depicted a number of Lissanians in The Hunger of Sejanoz. None of those illustrations resemble the one in Magnamund Companion to any greater effective degree than comparisons with Bhanarians. In fact, the only visual characteristic shared between all three illustrations is the apparent “scaled” nature of the body armor each is wearing. Obviously, I am making a significant supposition here, as are pretty much all of us contributing to this thread: that the illustrations are as "official" as other content in the books. There is certainly no lack of case study evidence out there that makes that particular supposition difficult to sustain in reality, even in cases where author and illustrator might be close collaborators. Creative people of nearly any stripe tend to prioritize their own creativity over objective/official "dogma", which is why one sees so much book cover art that either does not exactly resemble the actual content of the book and hears so often from authors who have indicated that an artist didn't depict a given subject in the fashion that the author imagined it when he wrote the text (and examples of that latter remark exist for both interior AND exterior book illustration, and further exist in cases where both author and illustrator indicate that they are otherwise "often of one mind"). |
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Post by Maerin on Jun 6, 2008 10:52:17 GMT -5
Hope you see what I'm getting at here, it is really to late in the night for me to engage in this kind of controversial subject. No problem. I do not disagree with you on the overall principle. However, it is in the practice that this can be taken too far, and I do believe this particular interpretation was one of those instances, as I indicate elsewhere in this thread. There is a point, and this happens in the real world even more often than it happens in interpretations of fictional settings, where one's views start to override unbiased perception, and interpretation blinds one from any contrary evidence that might otherwise be perceived. Undoubtedly, no matter what our culture or nationality, we can all think of examples in our histories (and maybe even our present-day current events) where such has been, or is, the case. In other words, one starts to ignore "inconvenient" evidence where the comparison is weak (or worse, non-existant) in order to sustain that "real world comparison" concept, forgetting that it is nothing more than a conceptual starting point to a final interpretation and not an interpretation itself. Once that situation emerges, the real world comparison technique is no longer an effective tool; instead, it becomes an impediment of the first order. |
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The point is that the Bhanarian warrior on the map in book 27 is not dressed as the one in the MC that the people of PA renamed as a Lissanian. I have never talked about skin-color. While the Bhanarian on the map of book 27 has a complex armor, the warrior in the MC seems to wear beast hides. There is obviously a contradiction between them if they are both illustrations of Bhanarian warriors. If they are, then one of them represents a minority group of the country and would had been labelled as such. 
