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Post by Al on May 7, 2008 2:33:41 GMT -5
Although Kai Lords are deadly warriors, but at this point of time, he is the last one left. And furthermore, he is on a mission to retrieve the Lorestones from Torgar. Actually he isn't the last Kai anymore. After all the new Kai Monastery is up and running by this point. Since it was constructed around book 3 it is fairly safe to say that a few new Kai may be approaching Kai Master. A new monastery has was built around book three, but I am sure it is not until the MK series that new kai were being trained, so while there may be a few people approaching some of the low levels of kai, for all intents and purposes the death of LW would be the end of the Kai.
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Post by Beowuuf on May 7, 2008 3:07:30 GMT -5
Yeah, legends had a few initiates running aorund, but I think there was nothign liek that - Until LW was a KAi Master he couldn't have taught anyone, and the second he became a Kai Master he had no time to train anyone - he was devoted mind and body to learning the Magnakai since it took so darn long and he had the time with Haakon gone.
That might have been a tactical mistake, except you can imagine him trainign some initiaties, then getting back to the book of the Magnakai, five years pass, Gnaag declares all out war, and LW is stuck as a Kai Master Superior with a handful of children
Plus, if I recall it wasn't until after the eight years he was gone, with the various hardships of the darklands blockade, that the gifted cadre really existed to be taught.
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Post by Samildanach on May 7, 2008 6:13:03 GMT -5
And don't forget the simple practical issue of finding the new Kai. The fact that a monastery building has been constructed doesn't mean Lone Wolf immediately locates a whole load of pupils. Presumably only Lone Wolf can identify those with Kai potential, which means personally assessing large numbers of candidates. A time-consuming endeavour, I would imagine.
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Post by Maerin on May 7, 2008 11:03:07 GMT -5
Maerin chuckles. Kai are not Jedi. There is no evidence to suggest that a Kai is the only one who can identify someone with Kai potential, save for one possible interpretation of one rather vague reference in the Legends series. Most of what is said is that there are signs that develop young that permit identification of those with the potential. It is just as easy (and somewhat more reasonable, considering the relatively low number of Kai and the non-existance of any evidence suggestive of "Kai recruiters") to assume that the people of Sommerlund, with their long traditions of having the Order of the Kai, are collectively capable of identifying those signs.
It is, however, quite clear that Kai potential is not enough and, without an Order of the Kai there seems to be only one way still existant such potential can be developed into actuality: following the literal path of Sun Eagle (much more difficult for someone not already trained as a Kai like Lone Wolf was) and find the Book of the Magnakai and then the Lorestones. That is likely why the Darklords could so firmly believe that destroying both Lone Wolf and the Book of the Magnakai in Vassagonia would permanently shut the door on any possible future for the Order of the Kai.
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Post by Maerin on May 7, 2008 11:08:53 GMT -5
That might have been a tactical mistake... Maybe, but it was the Book of the Magnakai that put Lone Wolf on the path of the Lorestones in the first place. Tactical mistakes do not necessarily win wars, but strategic mistakes very often lose them. And at the time we are talking about, there is no evidence to suggest that Lone Wolf would not have sufficient time to secure all the Lorestones before the Darklords became a renewed threat. As it is, Lone Wolf managed to find 3, 4 before the war really got moving; and 5 while the war against the Darklords was still effectively being stalled by the Freelander armies (and with the fifth already in Darklord possession). That Lone Wolf did not aquire the sixth and seventh before the Darklords managed to find a way to take both him and them out of the picture for several years was a matter of exclusively good luck for Gnaag.
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Post by Samildanach on May 7, 2008 14:42:45 GMT -5
Maerin chuckles. Kai are not Jedi. Pfft, Jedi have nothing to do with it. Since non-Kai evidently have little idea of what Kai Disciplines are or how they work, it's logical that only existing Kai would know what to look for in new recruits.
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Post by Maerin on May 7, 2008 14:58:42 GMT -5
Since non-Kai evidently have little idea of what Kai Disciplines are or how they work... I am not certain what your basis might be for this inference, even putting aside the fact it does not address the point I made previously about signs and evidence of Kai potential. That the actual mechanics, techniques, and usage of Kai disciplines is a secret is understood (and indicated as such in, among other locations, the Story So Far section of Flight from the Dark. That that translates into some ubiquitous and comprehensive secret...there seems little enough evidence to support that notion. The closest thing I can find to evidence either way is in Magnamund Companion: "Children in the households of Knights of the Realm who were seen to possess dormant Kai Disciplines were sent to the monastery to receive special training." (page 42, MC) and "The skills by which they had first come to the attention of their liege-lords..." (same citation). That makes no definite statement to the effect that a Kai is needed to recognize another potential Kai (in fact, it implies it does not, because the context of "liege-lord" in that section fairly specifically refers to the Knights of the Realm) and it is not indicated that Kai responsibilities (whether Kai Lord or Master) included traveling through Sommerlund to find new Kai. I suppose it might be argued that the lack of a definitive statement that a Kai is not required might be taken as evidence that one must therefore required...but that obviously is not logical and might be considered rather unreasonable as well.
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Post by Simey on May 7, 2008 19:01:03 GMT -5
If only the Legends had got this far, we'd know for sure which path is cannon! ;D But if I may put in my "Legends" view....Lone Wolf will have chosen the Pirsi route. Although Kai Lords are deadly warriors, but at this point of time, he is the last one left. And furthermore, he is on a mission to retrieve the Lorestones from Torgar. Going into battle at Cetza presents certain risks of dying in combat, despite his quite considerable skills and the reputation of being the "Saviour of Tahou". For practical and reasonable chances of success, he will need to rely on stealth and common sense to get to Torgar, and therefore, he has to seek out Sebb Jarel. I agree. And form the point of view of expanding the story into novel form, the Pirsi route - preferably including the Isle of Ghosts - is much the more interesting. I never knew you could get to the Isle of Ghosts from the Cetza route, but I always found it rather unsatisfactory that you fight this big battle all in one place and then - Hey Presto! - you're miles away at Torgar! With such divergent routes, there was probably no option but to have one or two paragrahs that say 'You travel for eight days and then you're there', but I much prefer the feeling of an actual journey that the Pirsi path gives you. Although it's notable that there is also a travel for eight days type paragraph at some point on that route, only after which are you instructed to eat a meal or lose three endurance points - what was he eating the other seven days!?!!
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Post by Agrarvyn on May 7, 2008 19:07:39 GMT -5
Kai Juice and the Curing discipline, naturally
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Post by Simey on May 7, 2008 20:58:33 GMT -5
Kai Juice and the Curing discipline, naturally Yeah, that's another thing - is his Healing on a go-slow or something? Eight days and one lousy Endurance Point back? If they weren't all dead, I'd sue the Kai Masters for the standards of their training!
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Post by Sarra on May 8, 2008 2:50:37 GMT -5
Actually he isn't the last Kai anymore. After all the new Kai Monastery is up and running by this point. Since it was constructed around book 3 it is fairly safe to say that a few new Kai may be approaching Kai Master. A new monastery has was built around book three, but I am sure it is not until the MK series that new kai were being trained, so while there may be a few people approaching some of the low levels of kai, for all intents and purposes the death of LW would be the end of the Kai. Lone Wolf was only a Kai Initiate when he became last of the Kai and he managed to achieve Kai Mastery by himself.
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Post by Beowuuf on May 8, 2008 3:12:35 GMT -5
He'd been taught by Kai Masters, I think they get taught all the disicplines all the time, and simply come to gain the powers in them one at a time.
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Post by Al on May 8, 2008 3:50:28 GMT -5
Yeah, that is the key difference Wuffy - LW was the recipient of years of training by lots of Kai Masters - if he bit the bullet, their would be no institutional knowledge left, it was all residing with him. Once he became GM and had trained other to the level of Master, it would not be as much of a problem, but he would probably be needed as a link to the first order for a long long time.
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Post by wildhorse on May 8, 2008 10:50:44 GMT -5
Although it's notable that there is also a travel for eight days type paragraph at some point on that route, only after which are you instructed to eat a meal or lose three endurance points - what was he eating the other seven days!?!! What was he eating the other 7 days? I know... Frog legs...they are a Chinese delicacy. Nah...he had the Magnamund version of frog legs...Ciquali legs...after all, they ate poor Sebb Jarel...
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Post by Sarra on May 8, 2008 14:22:11 GMT -5
Yeah, that is the key difference Wuffy - LW was the recipient of years of training by lots of Kai Masters - if he bit the bullet, their would be no institutional knowledge left, it was all residing with him. Once he became GM and had trained other to the level of Master, it would not be as much of a problem, but he would probably be needed as a link to the first order for a long long time. Yeah I guess so. But still, even if Lone Wolf did die I don't think the Kai would become extinct. There are still hundreds of years of Kai instinct in Sommlending blood. The Kai would come again. Plus there is always the possibility that other Kai escaped the destruction of the Monastery. Obviously Fehmarn is a big event and all, however, I'm sure some Kai were on quests that were too important to return for the feast. It is feasible that some escaped the agents of Zagarna.
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