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Post by Black Cat on May 4, 2008 13:56:51 GMT -5
Some people say that this forum is very silent, so I'll try to stimulate a conversation here. Pirsi or Cetza? In the LW gamebooks, the adventure is pretty straightforward. Oh, there's different paths you can pick to explore a castle or a city, but you normally end up to the same section that you would had ended up if you would had picked another path shortly after you took the decision to pick one over the other. (Does it make sense?) One big exception to this is The Dungeons of Torgar. Right at the beginning of the book, you are given a choice: Pirsi or Cetza. You will end up in Torgar for sure, but nearly 2/3 of your adventure will either be spent battling Drakkarim in Cetza or running through the Hellswamp. Plus, a third road is open if you fail to meet Sebb Jarel or if you fall in the river after the battle in Cetza: the Isle of Ghosts. But that's not important for what I want to say. My question is: which route is "canon"? LW can only pick one of them, Cetza or Pirsi. He cannot visit both places. Of course, you can say: "That's not important!" Well, I can tell you that it is. In the SsF of The Darke Crusade, here's what LW says to the Lencian envoy: 'Once, not so very long ago, your King and his army aided me during my quest for the Magnakai,' you replied. 'Perhaps now the time has come for me to repay my debt of gratitude.' LW is obviously refering to the Battle of Cetza. Going to Pirsi doesn't involve the Lencian army. So, to make sense, if LW says this, that's because he went to Cetza and not in Pirsi. That's why we can say that the Cetza route is the canon one that LW used. Fast forward to The Curse of Naar. In the realm of Avarvae, some comets come spinning around you and faces appear on them. You are then asked if you have visited Torgar during your adventures. This leads you to a section where the names of the faces on the comets are said: Paido, Adamas and... Sebb Jarel! If LW effectively went to Torgar, it doesn't mean that he met Sebb Jarel. AND, if LW never met Sebb Jarel, this means that Sebb Jarel never died while guiding you in the Hellswamp! And yet, he is there, in the Plane of Darkness, because he died in the Hellswamp, and LW recognized him. If LW knows who he is, this means that he had met him before, but to meet him (and getting him killed and sent to the Plane of Darkness), LW had to visit Pirsi. We can say that the route to Pirsi is also the canon one that LW used! So, which one is the real route? Pirsi or Cetza? You decide!
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Post by Al on May 4, 2008 14:35:12 GMT -5
My head hurts...
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Roark
Full Member
Deathlord
Posts: 154
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Post by Roark on May 4, 2008 14:36:56 GMT -5
After reading your arguments...I voted for Cetza...I choose not to argue! Said that, it'd make more sense the less crowed path of Pirsi. It's an undercover mission, isn't it? Getting involved in a great battle would attract too much attention on him.
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Post by Al on May 4, 2008 14:41:31 GMT -5
Given that one of them is listed in the SSF and the other is an option, I would have to think that Cetza is the cannon path - I think it would be safe to say that if it is mentioned in the SSF it trumps what is written in the book itself.
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Post by NightHunter on May 4, 2008 15:07:09 GMT -5
Something that need to be modified in the new books. I'm sure Joe is aware of it. ;D
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Post by Swiftstrike on May 4, 2008 15:12:10 GMT -5
Just because it says that lonewolf was aided by the Lencian's doesn't mean it was actually in the battle it could be the battle was used as a distraction to a lonewolf to slip by the eyes of the darklords, where it does state that he meet Sebb Jarel and this could only happen if he goes to Pirsi.
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Post by Aguila Saber on May 4, 2008 15:57:58 GMT -5
Voted Pirsi. I believe that is more or less the only way Lone Wolf could have met Sebb Jarel.
Lencia he could have aided a couple of times after he acquired Grand Mastership up until the Dark Crusade. (From year MS 5070 to roughly MS 5077.) Many ways to fulfill that requirement.
The use of the Magnakai quest is making it difficult, but this may be referring to that the Lencian army was helping the Eruan army and thus provided Lone Wolf with safe passage a fair bit into Eru during the Magnakai quest.
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Post by Maerin on May 4, 2008 16:03:25 GMT -5
Just because it says that lonewolf was aided by the Lencian's doesn't mean it was actually in the battle... I tend to agree with this observation. There are occasions where Lone Wolf makes definitive statements about past events, but this is not actually one of them. Lone Wolf was aided by the Lencians and the Eruans right from the very beginning of The Dungeons of Torgar in any number of ways, even from before Section 1 of the book; and any of those ways could address the reference Lone Wolf makes to a past debt in a "canonical" fashion. That Cetza might be regarded as somehow "more likely" is fair, but only if one does not consider Lone Wolf's vague choice of wording in the first place. Realistically, there is little such thing as "more" or "less" canon in this context, as canon is, by definition, a definitive. In any circumstance where two or more "options" could equally be official stories, which are very common occurrences in the Lone Wolf books, then one can only conclude either that neither "option" is canon... or that both are co-equally so (my preference is towards the latter conclusions, as it results in less headaches for no valuable return).
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Post by Beowuuf on May 4, 2008 16:16:10 GMT -5
I think neither are canon, I always argue any choice of path precludes any of them being canon, since all are equally likely.
I think it's unfortunate the choice of words and decision to name Sebb, but this is not in a section you must pass through. It is simply poor word choice. Note in the Darke Crusade, it asks if you have fought at the battle of Cenza. If so, you know Prarg from helping rally the troops
Except you only rally the troops with Prarg if you stay back. I personally only met him once, when I played the book in isolation and knew I couldn't hack the field nor the way to Persi, too much combat with high powered critters. Otherwise, I joined the first charge and never saw the man. So again, another option where 'canon' wouldbe you joned the charge if you fought at cetza
I guess at different times JD assumed the reader to have taken different path choices. The darke crusade definitely has more wiggle room than the curse of naar, where it seems nailed. But for that choice, you need to assume 'have you ever visited torgar via the hellswamp'. Otherwise, you never read through that choice. Whereas, you have to read through the SSF of book 15.
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Post by zipp on May 4, 2008 23:33:25 GMT -5
Good to see an actual LW conversation pop up on the new site.
I haven't voted, because I'd hate to set a path in stone, but if you held me at gunpoint, I'd also have to go with the SSF. It is, after all, the SSF.
Anyways, I ended up in the big battle in the Dungeons of Torgar and missed the hellswamp altogether. It certainly wasn't the more interesting of the two paths. Joe had a nice thing going as far as simplicity of combat went, but as has been discussed many times (and will probably be discussed again) it wasn't very DEEP combat. So fighting a bunch of combats in a row was... unfulfilling.
I think combat in LW could easily have been a little more interesting. It wouldn't neccesarily have needed the treatment I gave it, just something a little bit more... I don't... strategy oriented. Maybe a couple of sections or something else just to decide on some modifiers for CS, something to make battles more tactical.
Instead, the real fun of LW was the exploration, which was why I skipped combat as a kid and would often backtrack to "check out" that other path. I was just exploring Magnamund.
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Post by Agrarvyn on May 5, 2008 12:26:38 GMT -5
When I was at school, I read an awful lot of the books on God mode, i.e. I won all combats and completely disregarded my Endurance score, though I did stab at the RND in the back of the book when necessary. The main reason I greatly preferred the LW books to the Fighting Fantasy series was the continuing hero and growing backstory.
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Post by wildhorse on May 6, 2008 11:02:36 GMT -5
For me...my "canon" route is to fight Baron Shinzar at the Battle of Cetza, then purposely drop myself into the river to get washed up on the Isle of Ghosts, where I can then take on Demonlord Tagazin and Roark. Must have watched too much superheroes movies.
But if I may put in my "Legends" view....Lone Wolf will have chosen the Pirsi route. Although Kai Lords are deadly warriors, but at this point of time, he is the last one left. And furthermore, he is on a mission to retrieve the Lorestones from Torgar.
Going into battle at Cetza presents certain risks of dying in combat, despite his quite considerable skills and the reputation of being the "Saviour of Tahou".
For practical and reasonable chances of success, he will need to rely on stealth and common sense to get to Torgar, and therefore, he has to seek out Sebb Jarel.
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Post by Agrarvyn on May 6, 2008 16:03:36 GMT -5
Legends aside, Wild Horse, I like that interpretation
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Post by Samildanach on May 6, 2008 17:18:50 GMT -5
From a character point of view, it makes more sense to me for Lone Wolf to take the Hellswamp route, but I must admit to really liking the Cetza battle*. Unfortunately, I almost always die if I do Cetza, so I tend to take the other route.
*I'm a sucker for these kind of big battle scenes, which is why I like Warbringer in the Way of the Tiger series.
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Post by Sarra on May 7, 2008 2:14:50 GMT -5
Although Kai Lords are deadly warriors, but at this point of time, he is the last one left. And furthermore, he is on a mission to retrieve the Lorestones from Torgar. Actually he isn't the last Kai anymore. After all the new Kai Monastery is up and running by this point. Since it was constructed around book 3 it is fairly safe to say that a few new Kai may be approaching Kai Master.
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